I recently inherited with I believe to be a Smith & Wesson Model 1902 from a family member. It is chambered in .32-20. Although I am a gun enthusiast, revolvers and Smith & Wesson's are not something I have any experience with. Can someone give me a little information about what I have here. I'd be curious to know approximate age. Serial number is 38350. As I understand it, S&W didn't keep serial number records like some other companies so an exact date of production isn't possible...only a shipping date would be known. But, I would like to know approximately how old it is and any other information about this type. I think it's kind of a cool piece. It's the only revolver I have ever owned (I shoot mostly automatic pistols...1911s and Beretta 92s mostly).

Also, how sturdy are these guns? Can I safely shoot modern .32-20 ammo in it?

Yes, any ammunition you can find today (not an especially easy task, but at least .32-20 ammo is still available - and expensive) will be safe to use. SN 38350 probably shipped sometime in 1908. You have correctly identified it as a Model of 1902 as it has the rounded butt. These .32-20s were never big sellers, and S&W quit making them around 1930, after about 144,000 were made. The same revolver in .38 Special greatly outsold it.

The last one I had had the amazing tumbling projectile feature. This was a cop caliber at one time, but I've never found one that shot accurately.

The closest serial numbers I have on my list are:
23785 (target model) shipped in September, 1907
25300 (fixed sights) shipped in May, 1906
44642 (target model) shipped in June, 1910

So, DWalt's approximation of 1908 for yours is probably pretty close. It could be a little bit later than that. A letter from Roy would tell you exactly.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

This one does:

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I have the 1st issue made in 1898 in same caliber.
I posted about it here.
I found ammo for it at the Gun Show in Tyler,TX.
A 50 round box of new ammo cost me 50 dollars.

Nice old "1902" CamaroDMD Nice patina and beautiful grips. Looks to be in great shape

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John

Robert Johnson approves!

Colt also made several different revolver models in .32-20 but they also exited their manufacture prior to WWII. I have a very high condition Colt .32-20 Official Police from 1934, and also a Colt Army Special from 1912. The Colt single action Bisley model in .32-20 was a very popular target revolver at one time, and it was the largest selling Bisley.

“A” to that.

Some insist it be called a 1902 because it has a round butt.
If you're interested, mechanically, it is a Model 1905-2nd Change.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

When do you say "2nd change" does that mean there was a revision in design of the model?

What he said.

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Jeb

Yes.

The K frame went through quite a few significant mechanical changes between 1899 and 1915.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

If you are near a Cabelas you can order 32-20 for much less than $50 a box and have it shipped to the store with zero shipping charges. I have three S&W chambered in this round all three are very accurate... Forgot my manners welcome to the forum, and a nice one you have there!

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Randy

S&W itself never used the "Nth change" terminology in naming its K-frame revolvers. To them a Model of 1902 remained a Model of 1902 and a Model of 1905 remained a Model of 1905 in their catalogs until about 1915 when the "Model of 19xx" nomenclature was dropped by S&W in favor of calling all of the K-frame revolvers the "Military and Police (M&P) Model," round and square butt. The "Changes" numbering is purely a collector-invented naming convention to indicate a series of relatively minor evolutionary engineering changes made by S&W during the 1902-1914 production period. There were in fact several other changes made to the M&P after 1914, but strangely collectors don't usually recognize them as being "Changes" by naming them.

Look at it this way. The Ford Taurus was produced from model year 1986 to model year 2007, and in fact there were over 7 million made. But during that 20 year period, Ford probably made hundreds if not thousands of engineering changes, major and minor, to the Taurus. Yet to Ford and the rest of the world you had a 1990 Ford Taurus. If you really needed to know exactly how your 1990 model differed from the corresponding Taurus models of any other year you could easily find out from your local dealer if you knew the VIN. But if you were not a serious Taurus collector, all you would care about was that you had a 1990 Taurus and could get the right replacement parts for it when necessary. You wouldn't go to the parts store and ask for a fan belt for a Ford Taurus, 4466th Change.

So is it a Model 1902 or 1905. Now I'm curious and do not want to start any sort of tussle.

I'm afraid you have already restarted this religious debate. The Standard Catalog of S&W, 4th Edition, which is also known as the 'bible' identifies it as a Model 1905. Because S&W marketed it at the time as a Model 1902, some collectors ignore the fact that it does not have 1902 internals but has the rebound slide trigger return that was implemented in the Model 1905, Change 1. That makes it a Model 1905, round butt, like handejector says. In order to avoid the religious debate, just call it a .38 Military & Police revolver.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

It is a Model of 1902.

According to the historian, the "change" nomenclature was put together by Walter Roper, when he was working in the service department. He needed a way to identify what parts should be used to repair guns, as they came into the service department. He concluded, correctly for his purposes, that all that was important was serial number, and not butt configuration. He arbitrarily designated all guns as 1905s, ignoring the butt configuration. This works for that purpose.

It does point out, however, that the internals of both butt configurations are identical, and that is always what the catalogs say.

From a collector perspective, I believe it does not work 'properly', because it loses the notion of the round butt frame. The historian will tell you, if you ask him, as I did, that 1902 means round butt, and 1905 means square butt. That is important, because both models, regardless of name changes they endured, survived for almost 100 years. Ultimately, the square butt frame was discontinued (10 to 20 years ago ), and only the round butt survives today.

Regards, Mike Priwer

That 12 bar in A needs a metronome interface!
Tunes with gun calibers..... writing a tune titled,
“when cowgirls are singing” and they carry!!!

Mike,
Where did the notion of the round butt get lost? Can I help you look for it?
I always know what my butts look like.
Even a blind collector could FEEL the difference.

Is anybody havin trouble tellin which is which in this pic of two 1905-4th Changes?

{HINT} The one on the right with the Ivory handles is a ROUND BUTT!

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Here ya go-


Using the 1902 // 1905 classification school of thought, I present a COMPLETE 38 Special K Frame Collection:


A Mod 1899
A Mod 1902
A Mod 1905






That's it. That's ALL ya need. Three Guns, and ya got em all!

The 1899 is the Round Butt gun on the left with a swivel.

WAIT!-- Does that make it a Model 1902? I may have one gun too many shown here! Maybe not.......1899 came before 1902. I think. I'm confused from years of chasing changes.

Anyway.....like I said, three guns is all you need. All that silly "change" stuff was invented by dealers just to make ya buy more guns!
Oh, wait again........I'm a dealer......that collects.....and studies........I'm gettin dizzy........I need to listen to some music and chill out.......Cha..Cha..Changes are drivin me nuts...I think......

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

This past week I knocked the guts out of some really old M&Ps to give em a deep cleanin.
Remember- I'm a follower of the Neal & Jinks system....

I did not get beyond the 1905-3rd change, and I had observed 4 distinct varieties of rebound slides:

1- Slide with a key on it, no markings
2- Slide with a key and a patent date
3- Slide with no key, had patent date
4- Slide with no key, no date



So, a question-
Which slide do you need for your Model 1902?

Answer: NONE of the above! A Mod 1902 does not have a rebound slide! Neither does a Mod 1905.

Now, if you need a rebound slide for a 1905-1st with a ROUND butt, I can tell you exactly what to look for.
If you tell me it is a Mod 1902, go fish.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Really interesting information...I had no idea these were so "controversial" when it comes to what they are called.

So, if I understand this correctly...and I may not. Some people call this a Model 1902 and others would call it a Model 1905-2nd Change. Those in the 1902 camp call it that because that is what S&W called it when they originally sold it around 1908. Those in the Model 1905 camp call it that because mechanically it is like the other 1905 guns.

So here is what I don't understand. If S&W altered the design to make it more like the Model 1905...why market it as a Model 1902?

I doubt anyone knows definitively. I'll give you my opinion. Because it was familiar. The Model 1902 had been out for 3 years and was mostly a round butt revolver. S&W did start to make square butt guns toward the end of the 1902 production but still called them Model 1902s. But they already had a product that was familiar to the market as a Model 1902. And, the difference between the two revolvers was obvious from the shape of the butt irrespective of the improved internals. So, round butt guns stayed Model 1902s and the new square butt guns became Model 1905s.


That's my two pesos.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Lee

If I understand your comment, the round butt gun disappears in the N&J methodology. It does not disappear as a revolver. It's been offered continuously since 1899. The engineering-change methodology drops it in 1906, or. From that point forward, everything is a 1905. It worked for Roper, who needed it for the service department. I argue it does not work for identifying a revolver. One with a round butt is, simply, not a model of 1905.

If one chooses to call everything after 1906 a 1905, its OK with me, as long as they specify the butt configuration.

The more I think about this, the more I think the best way to bridge these two schools of thought is to refer to a round butt as "1902, identical to a 1905 ?? change". That does away with the confusion, and might satisfy both of us.

This all does causes confusion, like it or not. The 1st change to a 1902 is the thicker barrel with the shoulder. The next engineering change is the redesign of the cylinder stop. Since the 1905 was already introduced earlier, that is the 1st engineering change to the 1905, and simultaneously, the 2nd change to the 1902. This is all too confusing, and N&J conveniently does away with this mess by calling everything a 1905.

What more can I say ?!

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,
I thought I covered that in the post quoted below.
I'm pretty sure I can see the gun on the right, so it has not disappeared. I can tell it has a round butt. I can tell it is a round butt revolver.





Even simpler:
The revolver pictured above with ivory grips is a "1905-4th ROUND Butt"
Now, YOU know what it is, I know what it is, the parts guy knows what it is, the 1902 devotee/adherent knows what it is, and the N&J devotee/adherent knows what it is.

We use LOTS of terms that don't fit the catalog.
When was the last time you heard a Triple Lock called a 44 Military, Model 1908? Triple Lock is not a catalog term, but collectors know instantly what you mean.
44-1st, 44-2nd, and 44-3rd are not catalog terms, but they sure make life easy, quick, and simple.

If we go strictly by catalogs, the Safety Top Breaks are called "Hammerless Safety" early on in catalogs, and in later catalogs are called "Safety Hammerless".
I can hear it now-
"Sir, you do NOT have a Safety Hammerless! You have a Hammerless Safety!"
We often just say "38 Safety- 2nd" or "32 Safety- 3rd" and anyone who knows anything about them knows exactly what you mean.

Everyone in this debate must do what they want.
Tell me you have a 1902. Cool. I now know you have a gun with a round butt, circa 1902-2018. That narrows it down!
If I tell you I have a 1905-3rd ROUND BUTT, who got the most information?

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I have a 1902 - 2nd, factory target with the dreaded SQUARE butt!!
Does that make me kind of a butt head?

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Jeb

I am still waiting to see if anyone can provide a copy of an S&W ad or catalog issued between Nov 1904 & May 1905 when the square butt K- frame was introduced. The s/n range in that period was 58000-62449 iirc (books not at my computer). It is my contention that there is such a thing a a 1902 Square Butt because all 1902 & prior K-frames lack the screw in front of the trigger guard for the cylinder stop spring-loaded plunger which was introduce on BOTH types of butts @ s/n 62450 in 1905.

It seems to me that the COLLECTING fraternity has a legitimate need for greater precision than the early S&W catalogs. I have noted in an earlier thread that the catalogs called the 38 K-frames the "Military" model for the first decade of the 20th Century, with the "Police" designation added to the model name after many thousand revolvers had been made. The catalog "purists" seem to ignore this point, but per the catalogs, there was no such thing as an "M&P" from 1899 for more than ten years thereafter.

Mr. Roper's descriptions were recognized by Messrs. Neal & Jinks in their book, by Mr. Jinks in his history of S&W and by the more recent Standard Catalogs of S&W. I think it's sad that the catalog "purists" are unwilling to get with the program, because the resulting confusion doesn't help the newbies coming here to inquire about their revolvers.