HE 1905 ch 1 or ch 2?

apotter11 · #1 09-25-2018, 02:49 PM

I just picked up an older k frame 79783 (October 1906) and can't quite figure if it is a change 1 or change 2. The book says ch 1 and 2 are intermixed serial numbers.
This gun has a rebound slide with a key and a grove cut into the frame for it to slide in. Nice key and track, which i would like to assume was the elimination for ch 2.

rct269 · #2 09-25-2018, 03:31 PM

Well, it's older than mine (116420, shipped June 20, 1910); and mine's a "M&P Model of 1905 First Change Target"---so it says here.

This change business is not something I pay a lot of attention to, but that which jumped out at me with this gun was the ejector star (et al). There are no alignment pins set in the cylinder---a good thing, because there are no holes for them in the ejector star. Instead, the points on the star are ever so slightly convex; and fit (very precisely) into ever so slightly concave seats on the cylinder. It is, to restate the obvious, very precise, and had to be God awful expensive to make------at least compared to a pin or two and a hole or two.

That's the end of change talk from me----unless you say different. I'll be happy to pop the sideplate off, take apart whatever you tell me, and then sit and stare---and report back.

Ralph Tremaine

handejector · #3 09-25-2018, 03:37 PM

It is an 05-1st.
The key and keyway went away in the 05-2nd. You will occasionally see a gun that has the keyway cut in the frame, but no key on the rebound slide. That would be an 05-2nd.
There was no reason to scrap the frame.

apotter11 · #4 09-25-2018, 04:34 PM

Thanks Lee. That is an extreme level of craftsmanship! Along with Ralph's comment about the missing dowel pins on the star, which this also doesn't have, makes it fit the change 1 description.

Ralph, your gun, shipped June 1910 seems to make it too young to be a ch 1, but it is a target which overrides all else. There is a reason for a premium for targets of that era. The rebound slide is also marked "Pat. Pending" if you pop off the side plate it should be visible.

apotter11 · #5 09-25-2018, 04:39 PM

Ralph, unless you have the special tool, don't try and pry the rebound slide out. The spring inside will fly!

This one has all matching numbers including the grips numbered to the gun.

handejector · #6 09-25-2018, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apotter11

the missing dowel pins on the star, which this also doesn't have, makes it fit the change 1 description.

Don't count on dowel pins to help you date one. I have 05-3rds with the round star ends! They didn't scrap good cyls and extractors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apotter11

Ralph, your gun, shipped June 1910 seems to make it too young to be a ch 1

Lots of 05-1sts shipped in 1910.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apotter11

The rebound slide is also marked "Pat. Pending" if you pop off the side plate it should be visible.

Most rebound slides with a key do not have a patent date. Some late ones do. Your gun is early for a dated slide.

rct269 · #7 09-25-2018, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apotter11

Ralph, unless you have the special tool, don't try and pry the rebound slide out. The spring inside will fly!

This one has all matching numbers including the grips numbered to the gun.

I have each and every special tool known to man (almost at least)----including all the homemade stuff I somehow got by with for the first 30 years of messing with these things. I still use some of them in lieu of those made to sell to tool junkies. I have all of those, but some are too pretty to use.

Now springs flying---------------------

As much as I hate to admit it, there have been recent instances of springs flying. Suffice it to say an extra measure of care is required when messing with 50's vintage Kit Guns------BEWARE THE CYLINDER STOP SPRING!!!

For openers, it's all but invisible, so you may not even know it's gone unless it hits you in the face on the way out----or bounces off something which makes a noise. It is also worth noting it requires special care even after you find out it's there. It flew as an unknown (or unremembered anyway) the first time---taking it apart. Then it flew again putting things back together. Hearken unto the words of wisdom from Mr. Carter (Hondo44) when he says do your disassembly/assembly inside a clear plastic bag.

Ralph Tremaine

rct269 · #8 09-25-2018, 07:19 PM

Well, I had to look, so-------------continuing with Rebound Slides 101:

Mine's of the plain variety---no key/no keyway.

And the patent is not pending, it's "PAT'D FEB. 6 06".

That of note elsewhere inside are anti-chaffing buttons---two for the hammer, one for the trigger.

Other than that---regular stuff.

Ralph Tremaine

handejector · #9 09-25-2018, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apotter11

The rebound slide is also marked "Pat. Pending" if you pop off the side plate it should be visible.

I missed the Pending.
Neat. I don't think I have one like that. I'll have to check some more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rct269

Well, I had to look, so-------------continuing with Rebound Slides 101:

Mine's of the plain variety---no key/no keyway.

And the patent is not pending, it's "PAT'D FEB. 6 06".

Ralph,
That makes it an 05-2nd. We really don't know how interspersed the 1sts and 2nds are.

apotter11 · #10 09-26-2018, 10:02 PM

my error, mine also says pat'd Feb 6, 06.

See attached pictures of pat and keyway.