As I think about what to take to the next (Oct 6th) NE Ohio Bunching ( see thread in the Lounge)..... got to thinking .......those early .357 Registered Magnums "built to order" from 1935-40 were in many ways the first S&W Performance Center Guns.


Just a random thought!!!!!!!!

Good point. At that time all S & W handguns were hand assembled and fitted, but the RMs received extra care in the production process, as they would have required with each one being special ordered.

In this day and age, I think of the Performance Center as the last stand of how their handguns used to be assembled, tweaked and tuned.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

It's noted Wesson "selected the three finest fitters in the factory to build the Magnums". To that degree at least, you were going to get the best S&W had to offer, but the contention RM's received "extra care" in the production process is a puzzler. I've wondered about it for about as long as it's been since I first heard the tale. To that end, I've taken the time to sit and stare at each and every one of the target grade N frames of the time----looking for signs of the "extra care" given to RM's. And when I say sit and stare, I took them apart first----all apart (except for barrels and action studs)---and stared at the pieces----one and all. These guns are worthy of being described as "as new", so it was an apples to apples comparison. I found exactly nothing to suggest "extra care". By the same token there was no sign of anything other than the best S&W had to offer. They were all good, but none better than another.

I don't know beans from apple butter about the fit, finish, and quality of the Performance Center guns, but I'm inclined to agree their products very likely mirror the quality of the "good old days"----or at least are intended to do so.

I can tell you no factory made firearm comes close to a "custom" from the best of the best------not in any way----except maybe exterior appearance.

Ralph Tremaine

That's a great spin on the notion. I have never stopped to think that basically is exactly what RM.'s were back then- the performance center guns of the 1930's. I would just love to go back in time with a couple hundred bucks in my pocket! Order me up 2 of them one with 8 3/4 inch barrel with King sights and a 3 1/2 inch barrel and spring for some Roper grips to go on them!!

In the mid 1930s Smith had something new and special in the .357 magnum and "built guns to order" around the cartridge...extra care?.... no because the Smiths building them were already the best of the best.............

in the early 90s ,if the stories I've heard were true..... S&W took their best old school gunsmiths; moved them to their own building ... and they were give the freedom to designed their own guns...... got some parts from the factory..... created their own parts as needed and .....created small runs of unique hand built guns.



Today the PC seems to be turning out "unique looking" guns...............barrels and porting and ...???????????????

Great post from Ralph!
To take it a step further, examining things like the measurements of cylinder throats and groove diameter of the bore, it is apparent that the pre-war S&Ws took into account what it took many more decades for bullet casting handloaders to figure out.
Unfortunately, by that point many shooters had switched to the convenience and hype of jacketed bullets. Hence, the problems we see with 357s and 38s with .356" or smaller cylinder throats.
There's more to it than that; we could talk about the near match tolerances of chambers, the tapering of the chamber to throat, etc.
The pre-war guys went the extra mile across the board.

And, one last comment from Doug Wesson ca. 1930s:
"It might be well to say at this point that the same barrels, cylinders, chambering, rifling and reaming that are used in our target arms are found in our service arms, and the accuracy of the two types of arms is identical."

Best Regards,
Jim

They definitely received extra care. Handle a Reg Mag and then handle other S&W revolvers of the same era and the difference is very noticeable.

I own a 3.5" and 8.75" RM both near mint condition in the box. They are two of my finest handguns and I'm fortunate enough to own a lot of fine handguns built all over the world through the years.

The only other pre war revolver I own that comes close to the feel of my RM is an OD that got the King treatment. Otherwise the RM action has a noticeably better feel than my standard pre war guns (target and service).

Ralph,
You are correct. There was no "hand fitting" done to Reg Mags that was not done to 38/44 Heavy Duties, 38/44 ODs, 44 HEs, and even M&Ps!
I have absolutely felt 38 HDs and M&Ps that were as smooth and well fitted as Reg Mags, BUT one does have to compare apples to apples, as you said. One can't compare a 70% 38 HD that fired 4-5000 rds in its life and has 80 years of accumulated gunk inside to a pristine Reg Mag. Go new-to-new or USED-to-USED.


I posted this almost 12 years ago-

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

duhhhhhh
11 years ago.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Comparing the trigger pull and "crispness" between my K-22 Outdoorsman from 1935, my RM from 1937, and one of my 44 Magnums from 1956, I would be hard pressed to tell the difference. What I can state with certainty, is the polish on my 44 Magnum is superior to that on both pre-WW II revolvers.

Also, from S&W's records from 1935-1940, Registered Magnums were returned to S&W for repairs and adjustments more often than one might think. The pre-war ".357" Magnum was a custom ordered revolver, but other than that, it was just another S&W.

Bill

Could that be because of quality/performance "issues" or because buyers changed their minds about exactly what features they wanted????? Seems that RM were bought by hard core lawmen or the 1%'ers of the day.

From my recollection of earlier threads it seems like a lot of the RMs and Non-RMs were back for refinishes, barrel changes several times over their life time.

The question I have is: Is there any "material" difference between a 3 1/2" Reg Mag and a 1953 3 1/2" Pre 27?

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Many of the returns were for performance issues like failure to lock up properly, ignition problems, etc. I only mentioned this, not to pick on the RM, but to point out it was similar to other S&W handguns of the time.

Bill

In regard to DOC44'S post I owned a 3 1/2 inch RM shipped to a FBI agent in 1936. Through information obtained from S&WHF a letter was found when the gun was retuned to the factory for front sight work the owner requested the gun be checked as he had heard that there was problem with RMs coming open while being fired with heavy loads.

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SWCA 1932 SWHF 135

In a time when all Smiths were hand fitted....... doesn't putting your 3 best people on the project amount to giving the RM orders "extra care". Did they take extra time on RM's, if they felt it was needed, or were they cranking them out at the same rate (per day or hour) as M&Ps.

IMHO assigning your best people and maybe letting them take extra time and having them install/add non-factory parts........ could be viewed as giving "extra care" to each RM's production.

Remember each RM was sighted in with designated ammo at specific ranges..... wouldn't be getting that right be 'extra care"???

What were buyers paying the princely sum of $62 for if not a custom gun built with extra care.

My Dad in 1938/39 bought a Colt New Service in .357 magnum;and sent it off to Kings in Calf. for adjustable sights and and action job. When I asked him why he didn't just get a RM? His answer was the Colt with the King work and shipping both ways was still $5 or so cheaper than an RM; which was a lot of money to a patrolman in the late 30s.

Given the above; 3 guys built over 5000 RMs over about 5 years..... or about 333 guns/man/year or about 1 gun a day.

Are shops like Wilson Combat custom shops or a factory? My guess is that multiple workers at Wilson Combat turn out hundreds if not thousands of guns a year; where do you draw the line between the two?

.......and we hear bubbles busting everywhere.....




I think you have a vision of wizened little old dudes starting with blocks of steel and filing away for days, creating and then recreating their magnum opus with the next gun. (pun INTENDED )

Not how it went.
It did not take extra time to fit a Reg Mag.

Those three "best" fitters may have been the old dudes, or it may have been two old dudes and a younger guy that was very dexterous and had 20-10 vision, or whatever combination. It does not mean the other fitters were bumbling fools that were all thumbs.

A fitter does not fit the yokes, sideplates, or barrels to a gun. All that was done way up the 'assembly line' from him. ALL those tasks were done by dudes (or dudettes) that fit the same part all day. If you fit barrels, you fit barrels ALL day. If you fit sideplates, or yokes, same-same. I don't know if the barrel fitter cut the 8-3/4" barrels to the ordered length or not. I wouldn't be surprised if another guy cut and crowned them.
A 'fitter' put the guts in the gun at the final assembly. Did you know very few parts in the mechanism require any fitting? The ratchet, the sear, and the ejector rod length are fitted in each gun.
The ratchet teeth were probably cut by a guy that did nothing else.
Pushing the sear against a sanding belt and trying it once or twice might take a minute or two.
The ejector rod would probably be fitted by assembling the whole cylinder assembly, holding the center pin flush at the rear in a jig, and either sanding with a belt or filing the front till the rod and center pin were the same length- flush on the two ends.
Hammers and triggers are case hardened. No fitting was done to them.

Rebound slides aren't fitted.
The bolt might have been sanded on the front end for length- another two minutes gone.
Hands were probably just swapped till one fit.
Yoke screws sometimes require fitting. I've replaced a bunch of them, and it takes me about two minutes.

My point is that the final fitting and assembly was not a difficult job for a guy that did it all day. I can't imagine it taking an hour per gun. I doubt it took 30 minutes.



Again, I doubt it took a fitter over 30 minutes to build any gun, including a Reg Mag. We have never been told that is all they did, either. I would imagine they built many guns per day, including other models. A fitter, nor the Factory could make it getting one gun per day per fitter. That would have been a lot of fitters in WW II !!!!!



The only non-Factory parts used were sights. That was nothing new. Target guns were offered with out-sourced sights before there were hand ejectors.



Well, that sighting in with a specific ammo at a specific range is part of what you were paying for. Somebody had to order it, handle it, and pay for it.

The large amount of extra paper work is part of what you were paying for-
An order form had to be processed. It was either sent in by the buyer, or filled out at the Factory from a letter or possibly a phone call. Then, a build order had to be typed up and sent to the floor. That is a lot more paperwork than a build order for "100 K-22OD- Standard" or "300 38HD- Standard(5" Blue)".

Don't forget they threw in a Grip Adapter at no extra charge. Of course they got over if you chose Magnas.

Cutting the barrel to a certain length is part of what you were paying for.

Processing all the variables slowed everybody down to some degree, if only in reading time!

Also- don't forget that many if not most of the Reg Mags were sold below the retail price because they were exempt from the excise tax and discounted to police and military.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Big G.......wasn't saying they took a day to do a gun..just that maybe they only worked on one or two RM a day..but did all the things you mentioned amount to 'extra effort", special pride in their work , putting the best guys on the job..did those craftsmen take an extra 10 minutes ...... to produce the best gun that S&W could put on the street.

S&W wanted the RMs to be their flagship gun..... and wanted them to be the best they could turn out......did a bit of extra effort go into each gun from everyone involved...... OK wasn't good enough.


As a gun past their station each realized this will be a RM .....so a bit of extra effort from everyone who touched it! Pride in their own personal workmanship...............

Maybe a concept lost on many in today's world!!!!

Just a thought!

I know the PC gunsmiths of the 90s didn't hand whittle my Shorty9s or SD-9 but they strived to put out a gun that surpassed the 6906 I could buy for 1/3 the price.