Which came first?

[Muley Gil]

Those of us that admire pre WWII big bore revolvers might want to know the answer to this question: which came first, the 2nd Model Hand Ejector, that is most often found in .44 Special, or the 2nd Model .455? Both were introduced in 1915.

My guess is that when the Brits asked that the enclosed ejector rod Triple Locks be modified to a non enclosed rod, S&W looked at sales of the Triple Locks and decided to only build the 2nd Models.

[steelslaver]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

S&W looked at sales of the Triple Locks and SADLY decided to only build the 2nd Models.

There fixed it for you

[tenntex32]

As a non triple lock owner I have to say I want one. (.44spl or .455 matters not to me, especially as a handloader.)

But that being said, if we were to take an example of both styles of revolver, Triple Lock and 2nd Model, would a Triple Lock typically shoot smaller groups, all else being the same?

Or is it just the added complication coolness factor that get's people all gaga over them?

Dale

[Hondo44]

I'd say the 1st 455 2nd Models which shipped Dec 1915.

44 TLs in the 14XXX were shipping in 1916/17. The earliest few 44 2nd Models were in the 14XXX range.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by tenntex32

As a non triple lock owner I have to say I want one. (.44spl or .455 matters not to me, especially as a handloader.)

But that being said, if we were to take an example of both styles of revolver, Triple Lock and 2nd Model, would a Triple Lock typically shoot smaller groups, all else being the same?

Or is it just the added complication coolness factor that get's people all gaga over them?

Dale

IMO, no.

The panache of the TL, it's 1st of the 44s and N frame status, plus its low production make the TL a grail gun.

[tenntex32]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

IMO, no.

The panache of the TL, it's 1st of the 44s and N frame status, plus its low production make the TL a grail gun.

So it's ok to still want one...…...yes?

A few years ago I had a nice condition 2nd Model .455 that had been shaved for .45acp. I let it go for a price that allowed me to acquire a Model 1917, but to be honest I don't think I would be so quick to part with a Triple Lock .455.

Has S&W ever dusted off the tooling and brought the Triple Lock back as one of their "nostalgia" series revolvers?

Dale

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by tenntex32

So it's ok to still want one...…...yes?

A few years ago I had a nice condition 2nd Model .455 that had been shaved for .45acp. I let it go for a price that allowed me to acquire a Model 1917, but to be honest I don't think I would be so quick to part with a Triple Lock .455.

Has S&W ever dusted off the tooling and brought the Triple Lock back as one of their "nostalgia" series revolvers?

Dale

"Wanting" is always OK. It's only the acquisition that can get you in trouble.

[Wiregrassguy]

"Wanting" is always OK. It's only the acquisition that can get you in trouble.

Amen, Brother!


I had opportunities twice to acquire a .455 TL reamed for .45 Colt and a virgin .455 2nd Commercial. We just don't see those models in my area very often. I fortunately was able to fund the purchases.





.455 2nd with its original holster

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by tenntex32

So it's ok to still want one...…...yes?

Has S&W ever dusted off the tooling and brought the Triple Lock back as one of their "nostalgia" series revolvers?

Dale

YES it's OK!

I'm afraid the tooling IS dust.

The closest they've come and will ever come is the ball detent in the yoke.

If they made a true TL again, few would pay the price. And originals might be had cheaper!

[tenntex32]

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

Amen, Brother!


I had opportunities twice to acquire a .455 TL reamed for .45 Colt and a virgin .455 2nd Commercial. We just don't see those models in my area very often. I fortunately was able to fund the purchases.





.455 2nd with its original holster

Wire,

While my 2nd Model .455 was nice it was shaved. All-numbers matching including the grips. (All indications with regards to the extractor star s/n, etc leads me to believe the cylinder was matching before shaved.)

At that time they were considered a $500 revolver in shaved cylinder condition. I priced it rather high to allow for haggling/wiggle room and the first guy that looked at it was tickled to death to buy it at my asking price. Of course I told him it was shaved to accept .45acp and mild mild handloads or .45AR loads were most appropriate...….and he had the money out before I could finish my last sentence.

Both of your examples quite nice, thanks for sharing them!

Dale

[andy52]

Originally Posted by steelslaver

There fixed it for you

And Wolf and Klar fixed it back again... just without the third lock.

[glowe]

Roy and Lee at one time entered a 44 HE, 2nd in the SWCA database with 14,6XX that shipped in November, 1916. Another one, 14,7XX was listed as having been shipped in July, 1916.

I have not run across the reason why the shroud was removed from the 44 HE either?? No one has commented yet. The first recorded 44 HE, 2nd was as stated above, July 1916. The first 455, 2nd in the database was July 1915, so there were no 44 HE 2nd made until the British contracts were complete in July 1916. Coincidence, I think not.

FOUND IT! Roy's book, 125 Years With Smith & Wesson, stated that after delivery of the first 455 TLs, the English responded that the gun was too heavy and the locking system in the extractor housing was too precise and could be jammed by dirt. The advent of fighting sealed the deal with the factory to quickly provide TLs starting in September 1914. The book states that by January 1915, the first of the new barrels were available. By June 1915, the factory was in full production of the non-shroud barreled 455 Mark II.

Oh ya - here is my gratuitous picture of my three 455 Mark II. One original caliber, one converted to 45 ACP, and one countersunk for 45 Colt and 455.

[Green Frog]

Gary, I got the impression that once the Brits put in a big order for the second style without the shroud or third lock, the powers at S&W probably decided it didn’t make financial sense to maintain all that inventory for two models so similar to one another, and it turned out that it took a while for any but the most dedicated followers of the breed to catch on.

Froggie

[Club Gun Fan]

I've posted mine before. It's one of my best Club Guns. It's serial number 088, the first of the 12 TL's shipped in 1906. As you can see it's blue and letters that way. Some of the 12 were nickle plated later. I like to think it's the first N Frame made.

[Wiregrassguy]

Gary, are those factory ivories on the bottom one?

[glowe]

You know they look very good on the old war-horse, but I picked them up off ebay a year or so ago and they are synthetic ivory. They fit perfectly and give the gun that "General Patton" aura. The gun came with hand carved smooth wood that were one step better than a 2 x 4. It is a shooter and I was not ready to spend the money for a set of N frame gold medallion stocks, so a simple and cheap solution. I inserted the gold medallions I had laying around.

[cgt4570]

I only have one. :-(
Aside from a very fine action, I can't tell any real difference in inherent accuracy between it and 2nd Models.

[REM 3200]

Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan

I've posted mine before. It's one of my best Club Guns. It's serial number 088, the first of the 12 TL's shipped in 1906. As you can see it's blue and letters that way. Some of the 12 were nickle plated later. I like to think it's the first N Frame made.

'Bout all I can say is WOW ! I'm impressed.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Club Gun Fan

I've posted mine before. It's one of my best Club Guns. It's serial number 088, the first of the 12 TL's shipped in 1906. As you can see it's blue and letters that way. Some of the 12 were nickle plated later. I like to think it's the first N Frame made.

Don,

That's one impressive TL!

I presume it was converted to target after it was 1st shipped.

It also appears to be a 5 screw. Is that correct?

I know a few right after 1st regular production are 4 screws, like #2.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by glowe

I have not run across the reason why the shroud was removed from the 44 HE either?? No one has commented yet. The first recorded 44 HE, 2nd was as stated above, July 1916. The first 455, 2nd in the database was July 1915, so there were no 44 HE 2nd made until the British contracts were complete in July 1916. Coincidence, I think not.

FOUND IT! Roy's book, 125 Years With Smith & Wesson, stated that after delivery of the first 455 TLs, the English responded that the gun was too heavy and the locking system in the extractor housing was too precise and could be jammed by dirt. The advent of fighting sealed the deal with the factory to quickly provide TLs starting in September 1914. The book states that by January 1915, the first of the new barrels were available. By June 1915, the factory was in full production of the non-shroud barreled 455 Mark II.

There has been more discussion since the book was published. Obviously the first TL 455 sample was submitted to the Brits before war broke out and when they made their complaints. Obviously the complaints were mere speculation and many feel they were bargaining to get a cheaper gun.

The ~ 1st 6000 455s shipped are TLs and ironically, since those were the first in battle, there are no documented instances of the Brits speculation that "the locking system in the extractor housing was too precise and could be jammed by dirt". Nor were there any problems compared to the 2nd models, or with either model.

However, the change to the 2nd model was already designed, so Smith originally dropped the third lock unrelated to the Brit's request due to competitive cost. They saved about $2.00 by reducing the price from $21 to $19 to get it down to the Colt New Service level.

The Brit's issue with the shroud was more conjecture than fact. Remember they chose the Webley self loader over Browning's 1911 for their 1st military auto pistol! But their officers purchased Colt 1911s in 45 ACP! And soon the Brits were begging Colt for every 1911 they could purchase, eventually in their own 455 round, besides scouring our country for every Commercial model they could buy!

I have nightmares of 455 TLs and 2nd Models that were re-issued in WWII, piled on the wet sands of Dunkirk.....

[H Richard]

Roy tells me my 2nd Mod 455 shipped in Nov 1915, (s/n 26007). I had been converted to 38 Spec, the barrel and chambers being sleeved.

[Club Gun Fan]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Don,

That's one impressive TL!

I presume it was converted to target after it was 1st shipped.

It also appears to be a 5 screw. Is that correct?

I know a few right after 1st regular production are 4 screws, like #2.

Jim
No, all 12 were given to top target shooters and friends of Smith & Wesson.
Yes, it is a 5 screw. This is from the letter I got from Roy.
Factory records show that this revolver with serial number 088 was shipped from our factory on November 21, 1906 and delivered to G. Allen, no address listed. This was one of a group of 12 .44 Hand Ejector New Century manufactured in 1906.
This was the first group of these revolvers produced and they were generally provided to target shooters. This is the lowest of the serial number (088-099), but was not the first one recorded as being shipped.”

George Allen 98 Catherine Street Springfield Ma was a member of the USRA in 1906. CLUB PISTOL is stamped on the front strap.

[Hondo44]

Thank you Don, very interesting.

Are you aware if any of the 45 S&W Spl TLs submitted to the 1907 Army Trials having been refurbished and presented to famous shooters of the time?

[Club Gun Fan]

Jim
Not that I'm aware of.
Don

[The Gila Bender]

Gratuitous thread-jacking photobomb of my shiny .455 TL here:
PICS ADDED- Commercial .455 Triple Lock at the LGS?