New Thread looking to identify

[tomw9300]

Swing out yoke M 79064
Hand Ejector
Serial Number Butt 935558
Barrel 935558
Barrel 38 S&W CTG
Barrel 3"
Sights Fixed
3 pictures attached

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

You have a .38 Military & Police revolver from the early 1940s. Is it stamped .38 S&W or .38 S&W SPECIAL on the barrel? These are two different calibers? The barrel is measured from the front of the cylinder to the end of the barrel. The grips are post 1968. Can you show us a picture of the top of the barrel, with a view of the front sight? I see where a lanyard loop hole has been plugged in the butt. This revolver may have shipped to the British Commonwealth troops during WW II. Does it chamber .38 special cartridges?

[bigwagon]

That's actually a 4-inch barrel, as revolvers are measured from the muzzle to the end of the forcing cone. The grips are also incorrect, and obviously quite poorly fitted. It otherwise looks to be in quite nice condition and likely dates to the very late 1930s, right before the end of civilian production prior to WW2.

[Absalom]

It’s a Pre-Victory from about February/March 1942.

The barrel length seems to be about 4”, but the SMITH & WESSON on the barrel appears too far forward for a 4” factory barrel; I think it’s cut. And the OP seems to be clear in stating 38 S&W CTG.

In conjunction with the plugged lanyard hole, we’re almost certainly dealing with a refinished ex-British Service model.

[DWalt]

Is there anything like "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" stamped on the topstrap? Seems like there should be at that SN. Does it appear that the front sight might be soldered or brazed in place? It would be strange to see a .38 S&W BSR with a 4" barrel at that time.

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, Tom! Guys, I think the gun was polished and refinished when the barrel was cut and butt plugged. I suspect there are no military stamps left. They clearly polished off the acceptance, ordnance master's initials and flaming bomb stamps from the butt. I enlarged the first picture and can see no US Property stamp. That's why it would surprise me to find anything else.

[tomw9300]

Thanks guys. I just added the S&W grips as the ones that were on the pistol were "generic white plastic". at some point I would like to get period correct grips.
Have posted additional pics. On right side lower grip frame appears to be I & V stamped. Upper grip frame appears to be Z stamped.
Left side stamp, can't tell what it is.
Right side barrel a design and NP is stamped.
Picture of front sight.
Right side barrel 38 S.&W. CTG

Does help to narrow down model and year?

OPS, could only upload 5 pics. Will load the other 2 pics later

[tomw9300]

Again, thanks for all of your replies.
Is there a specific way to determine if barrel has been cut?

[Absalom]

The letters on the grip frame are just fitters’ marks, meaningless to us.

But the last two pictures (of the series of 5) confirm our guesses about a British Service model, and hint at the gun’s history. The arrow-in-a-C is the Canadian military property stamp. However, the gun was surplussed out in Britain, not Canada, because the NP (Nitro Proof) with the arm holding a scimitar above it is a mark of the London proofhouse.

Originally Posted by tomw9300

...
Is there a specific way to determine if barrel has been cut?

Yes. three ways: one is historical, the fact that at that serial in 1942 no BSR’s with 4” barrels were produced. The second is the position of the barrel rollmark, which does not match a standard 4” barrel. The third is that the front sight is soldered on.

[tomw9300]

There is nothing on the top of the barrel.
I have fired 38 Special 130 GR FMJ

[Absalom]

Originally Posted by tomw9300

There is nothing on the top of the barrel.
...

Then it has been very heavily buffed before the refinish. Every revolver of that period had the patent information stamped on top. See attached.

[rct269]

Tom, what these fine folks have failed to do----perhaps for fear of being deemed unkind-----even downright mean, is to tell you (and tell you why) you are the owner of what some less sensitive folks (like me) might refer to as a fugitive from a junk yard. And it's not so much that I'm less sensitive, more like I believe you need to know so as to avoid coming to own another one like it.

Your revolver, in its original form, is a legitimate collectible. Your revolver in its present form (messed with) is not. It is a cobbled up mess made to sell to well meaning but unsuspecting aficionados-------who are perhaps a bit behind on their book work.

So----what to do? Forget about finding/buying correct grips---one of those good money after bad deals. Forget about shooting it----unless you shoot to hear the noise. I'll leave it to our more technical types to explain why bullets which rattle down the bore have less chance of finding their mark than those that fit properly.

I'll also leave it to others to continue this---but keep in mind the old saying "Measure twice---cut once.".

Ralph Tremaine

[chiefdave]

Perhaps Ralph was a little too blunt. While the modifications significantly reduce value your revolver still has a WWII history and as such still has value. Looks as it started off in Canada, ended up in England via who knows where and then returned to the USA. Most Victory's don't have that much history. You might get some degree of accuracy with either 38S&W or 38SPL HBWC's with lead bullets.

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by tomw9300

Again, thanks for all of your replies.
Is there a specific way to determine if barrel has been cut?

Looking at the picture of the front sight, you can see where it is brazed or silver soldered in place. Factory barrels for the fixed sight revolvers had the front sight forged in place.

Generally, the specs for a .38 S&W revolver bore is .360", while a .38 special is .357". Sometimes, lead bullets will expand enough to grip the rifling. .38 special cases are known to expand when fired in an altered .38 S&W chamber, as the .38 S&W is slightly larger in diameter, as well as being a shorter case than the .38 special.

[Wiregrassguy]

I was wrong (imagine that ). There were some military stamps left. The others^ have interpreted them so I'll demur. Tom, please post a picture of the muzzle so we can see if it was crowned. From the pictures you have posted, it appears it was not. Not having a good crown can affect accuracy and, if you intend to shoot it, might be a good idea to have a gunsmith crown it.

[DWalt]

My experience has been that any .357-.358" lead bullet as used in the .38 Special cartridge will work well in a .38 S&W revolver. It is a gross exaggeration to say they will rattle down the bore. In fact the minimum SAAMI diameter specification for a .38 S&W bullet is .355". But do not mistake any Victory for a target revolver. They were not intended to be used beyond close range.

[tomw9300]

Thanks to all contributors.
This was my Grandfather's revolver. He had it when he retired with from the Police Department in 1949.
It just has sentimental value at this point.
Again, thanks to all who advised on this S&W.

[steelslaver]

Here is its probable story. There where thousands upon thousands of them. The British are not that fond of guns, especially handguns and rather than surplus them out to their own decent citizens they mostly exported them back to the US. At the time they were very cheap and easy to get in the US from stores, mail order catalogs etc. But, the 38 S&W and its British equivalent where not nearly as popular as the 38 special. A few minutes with a hand reamer would cut the shoulder in chamber for 38 S&W deeper to that of a 38 special. They just ignored the fact that a 38 S&W case had a NOMINAL OD of .3865 and a 38 special .379. and a bore of 360 vs 357. The things fired, the cases bulged a bit. Most people don't reload and most people have poor expectations of revolver accuracy and were happy. Lots of barrels were cut off at various lengths, many so short they were left with no front lug for the ejector rod. Hey, the still fired and the bullet went somewhere. Good enough for most peoples ID of a defensive (0r offensive for that matter) hand gun. At one time you could have bought a ton of them for about $35 each and had them delivered to your shop or house with no government paperwork.

The fact that it is what it is is part of the history of guns. Its like all tthe 1917 Springfields, Enfields and Mausers that ended up with sights milled off, a Herter's $19 walnut stock and a Weaver scope that became "Daddies deer rifle". Collectable no. Historical in their own way. I have my father's 1917 Eddystone, reamed to 30-338 in my gun safe complete with Weaver, straightened floor plate and Herter's stock.

As Ralph pointed out the bore will engage the rifling, plus, back int the day most 38 specials were soft lead and .358, so it wasn't that bad. Hollow base wat cutters will expand the skirt of the bullet and engage fine also. On the chambers, some of the "looser" ones will split the brass. Thee chambers diamentions are nominal. there is a range they are allowed to be in from tight to loose. Some people report they have 38 specials and 357 mags that will chamber the fatter 38 S&W cases. They has chambers on the loose side for those cases.

For a cop who didn't make a lot of $ and had to provide there own gun it probably worked fine. Many cops never fired their guns much and/or only occasionally at short range. At a 20 yard or under shoot out it probably wouldn't make that much difference in the end result for most people.

[DWalt]

"This was my Grandfather's revolver. He had it when he retired with from the Police Department in 1949."

This revolver is a little strange if he had it prior to 1949. The wave of surplussed-out BSR imports didn't start until somewhat later, I believe around the mid-1950s, certainly not as early as pre-1949. Prior to that there could have been some WWII GI bringbacks in circulation in the USA, but they would not have the proof mark shown. Any theories regarding this?