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10-13-2018, 07:25 PM
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Finding grandpa's police .38
Hello folks, so I read the handy "How to identify a gun" sticky thread but my question is not about a gun I own but rather one I am looking to acquire. Essentially, for my collection I would like to find a SW revolver similar to the one family members carried as Jersey City police officers in the first half of the 20th century. (I don't expect to find the actual guns.)
Here are the only known facts I have:
A) Great-grandfather was on the force from 1900-1931.
He was issued a SW serial number 171XX (caliber not known).
B) Grandfather was on the force from 1920-1957.
He was apparently issued two SW firearms during that time and both "cal. .38" serial numbers 281XX and 6138XX respectively.
Is it possible to reasonably know what any of these models might have been? Lemon squeezers or MP? Also, I presume "cal .38" means .38 special?
Appreciate any info, thanks!
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10-13-2018, 07:33 PM
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Will cost you a few dollars ($75 for each) for a S&W letter but since you have the SNs the letters should tell you exactly what the guns were and when they left the factory and where they were originally shipped. As far as I know, you can request the letters even if you don't have the guns. Someone will correct me if that is not the case.
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Last edited by 22hipower; 10-13-2018 at 07:34 PM.
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10-13-2018, 07:53 PM
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You'll need to know what the gun is, before requesting a letter. For example, 171xx could be either a 1st Model .38 special, or a 2nd model 32-20, or a .44 caliber revolver. There are other possibilities, as well.
Mike Priwer
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10-13-2018, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepriwer
You'll need to know what the gun is, before requesting a letter. For example, 171xx could be either a 1st Model .38 special, or a 2nd model 32-20, or a .44 caliber revolver. There are other possibilities, as well.
Mike Priwer
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Understand. Though is it likely that the ones issued between 1920-1957 to patrol division of a city police force would have been SW MP .38 special 4" (pencil barrel) revolvers?
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10-13-2018, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conklin
....
Is it possible to reasonably know what any of these models might have been? Lemon squeezers or MP? Also, I presume "cal .38" means .38 special?
Appreciate any info, thanks!
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Jersey City is known to have acquired .32 cal Model 1896 S&W revolvers in the late 1890s, but I don’t know what they got after that. So for your great-grandpa, he could have gotten one (I have a Model 1896 that shipped in 1900, see attached), but it’s hard to envision a cop carrying that until 1931
Your grandfather almost certainly carried .38 Special M&P revolvers. By the 1920s, they were ubiquitous, and the serials you mention fit the time frame. Attached a picture of 450432 that shipped to a police dept. in 1923).
Last edited by Absalom; 10-13-2018 at 08:04 PM.
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10-13-2018, 08:18 PM
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Have you tried to contact the Jersey City Police Department to see if they have some history of issued firearms or pictures? Your question is not easy to answer.
Some observations about your GGFs service revolver. If he started in the force in 1900, the serial number can only fit a 38 DA top-break. The 32 Double Action top-break would also fit the 171XXX serial number range. No other S&W would have that serial number in 1900. Now if that serial number was not his first side-arm, many more could fit his service years. There are a few models that it cannot be, first is a 32-20, since your serial number is above the range for that caliber. Because of the serial number, it cannot be a Model 1899, Model 1896, Model 1903, Model 1902. If received later in his career, a 38 Military & Police, 3rd Change from around 1910. The 38 Safety would fit the serial number range for your GFF.
As for your GF's 38s, he would most likely have been issued 38 Military & Police Hand Ejector revolvers and if so, 281XXX would have been shipped around 1918 and would be a 4th Change. 613XXX would have shipped in the early 1930s.
Problem is what configuration was ordered? Was it a round butt or square butt? What was the barrel length? Blue or nickel? The serial number you mention cannot be a Model 1896 with that high a serial number, but he may have been given one as his first revolver.
Sorry, I read your serial number incorrectly. Normally, we see the last three numbers Xed out, not two. For that number the Model 1896 would be about the only choice for 1900, but the 32-20 and 38 Military & Police guns would fit later in his career. On the other hand, 28,XXX would not fit your GF's entry year into the department if it was a 38 M&P. He could have been issued a used 38 Model 1902 Military & Police, or a used 32-20 Model 1905 M&P. Confusing isn't it?
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Last edited by glowe; 10-13-2018 at 08:32 PM.
Reason: Added content
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10-14-2018, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conklin
Here are the only known facts I have:
A) Great-grandfather was on the force from 1900-1931.
He was issued a SW serial number 171XX (caliber not known).
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# 171XX could be a Model 1896 .32 Cal Hand Ejector from 1896 to early 1900s,
a Model of 1903 .32 cal from 1903 to 1904,
or a .38 S&W (not .38 Spl) Regulation Police I frame from the early 1920s.
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10-14-2018, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
# 171XX could be a Model 1896 .32 Cal Hand Ejector from 1896 to early 1900s,
........
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It just occurred to me to search for the Jersey City Models 1896 I knew had been presented here before.
Here's the thread:
Model 1896 - .32 HE, Jersey City PD, with photos
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10-14-2018, 08:17 PM
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Somebody tell me why 171XX ( not 171XXX, but the OP's 171XX) could not be a model of 1899 .38 caliber. The range is 1 to 20975.
Mike Priwer
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10-14-2018, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepriwer
Somebody tell me why 171XX ( not 171XXX, but the OP's 171XX) could not be a model of 1899 .38 caliber. The range is 1 to 20975.
Mike Priwer
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Based on the serial it certainly could be. Based on the historical record, it’s less likely.
If Jersey City just took the major step of adopting an issue sidearm and took delivery of the first batch of the Model 1896 in 1897, how likely would it be that a mere three years later, in 1900, the OP’s great-grandpa would already be getting a different gun in a different caliber?
But of course that’s just probability, not proof.
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10-14-2018, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepriwer
Somebody tell me why 171XX ( not 171XXX, but the OP's 171XX) could not be a model of 1899 .38 caliber. The range is 1 to 20975.
Mike Priwer
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In my correction, I mentioned a 38 M&P would fit GGF. What we do not know is if the serial number was for his first service revolver or a later issue number?
I like the possibility that it could have been a 32 HE(1896).
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Last edited by glowe; 10-14-2018 at 09:39 PM.
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10-15-2018, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe
As for your GF's 38s, he would most likely have been issued 38 Military & Police Hand Ejector revolvers and if so, 281XXX would have been shipped around 1918 and would be a 4th Change. 613XXX would have shipped in the early 1930s.
[/I]
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Thanks for all of the responses. Yes it can be confusing. I understand the grips during the 20's were medallion-free, what would the grips have looked like for a 1918 gun and an early 1930's gun?
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10-15-2018, 09:55 PM
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They would have looked similar for all early K frames. The teens stocks had large gold washed medallions, while the thirties would have been silver medallions.
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10-15-2018, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom
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Excellent thread, indeed, thanks!
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10-15-2018, 10:24 PM
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1910 to ~1920 Recessed Gol plated over brass on round butt Srvice stocks:
Early 1930's chrome plated flat, flush on square butt Service stocks:
Late 1930's chrome plated flat, flush on square butt Magna stocks:
Photo by crsides
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10-15-2018, 11:25 PM
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Thanks for the photos! How about 1910-1920 square butt? And the 1920's grips had no medallions, is that right? (Unless someone replaced the grips, of course.)
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10-16-2018, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conklin
Thanks for the photos! How about 1910-1920 square butt? And the 1920's grips had no medallions, is that right? (Unless someone replaced the grips, of course.)
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Sq butt were the same except a square butt.
Correct, no meds in the 1920's.
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10-16-2018, 07:49 AM
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Wow some great questions and answers here .Welcome to the forum Conklin.Stick around and let us know what your search turns up .
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10-16-2018, 08:57 AM
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There is a little bit of information about the JCPD in this link, as well as some stories that might be of interest. Jersey City History - 1921: Jersey City Under Commission Government - Police Department your GF and/or GGF might be in the pictures.
You should still contact the department to see if they have any further information about sidearms issued during the time of your grandfather and great-grandfather.
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10-16-2018, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe
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Thanks, great link! Yes I did contact them and that's how I got their "roster cards" but they were limited to the info found above. It seems the old timers from the dept have passed on.
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10-18-2018, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe
613XXX would have shipped in the early 1930s.
[/I]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
Sq butt were the same except a square butt.
Correct, no meds in the 1920's.
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So it sounds like I want to find a 1930's (early '30s) SW MP fourth change revolver so I have a representation of what he might have had. And since I prefer 4" square butt I'd be happy with that and close enough in any case. Is there a handy photo of this gun for reference, and the serial range I should consider?
Last edited by Conklin; 10-18-2018 at 06:28 PM.
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10-18-2018, 07:12 PM
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The 1930s 4" M&P (blued in pictures) should be relatively easy to find at a good price and certainly appropriate for the era and type of revolver carried by police. I rather like the idea of a Model 1896 (nickel in pictures) for your GGF, especially since the JCP did use these revolvers as duty guns the turn of the century. Again, a little more expensive, but still affordable and available.
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10-18-2018, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe
The 1930s 4" M&P (blued in pictures) should be relatively easy to find at a good price and certainly appropriate for the era and type of revolver carried by police. I rather like the idea of a Model 1896 (nickel in pictures) for your GGF, especially since the JCP did use these revolvers as duty guns the turn of the century. Again, a little more expensive, but still affordable and available.
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Thanks, I like that idea, too. Nice photos, perfect set!
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10-23-2018, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe
They would have looked similar for all early K frames. The teens stocks had large gold washed medallions, while the thirties would have been silver medallions.
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Is it safe to assume that a motorcycle officer (and mounted officer) of this time frame would have a lanyard ring on his revolver? Would they be issued that way? I understand lanyard rings were included on 1911s as they were designed for cavalry soldiers.
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10-23-2018, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conklin
Is it safe to assume that a motorcycle officer (and mounted officer) of this time frame would have a lanyard ring on his revolver? Would they be issued that way? I understand lanyard rings were included on 1911s as they were designed for cavalry soldiers.
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For reasons I've never quite understood, Americans generally haven't done lanyards even when the guns were equipped with the swivels.
During the time when the US cavalry actually mattered, their handguns had no lanyards. US military revolvers weren't equipped with a lanyard until the 1901 iteration of the .38 Colts, but there is no evidence any regular actual use of lanyards by the troops ensued. Nor did that happen on the 1911. There were lanyards for the Victory in WW II, but on photos of the guns in action, for example with pilots in the Pacific, nary a lanyard in evidence.
That's in marked contrast to the British, who always considered lanyards a basic requirement for a service handgun.
S&W revolvers could be ordered with the swivel at all times, but I would not assume that as the default unless you have some specific evidence of that. There are some police departments that ordered swivels on their guns, and some guns are found with post-factory swivels, but overall very few.
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10-23-2018, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absalom
For reasons I've never quite understood, Americans generally haven't done lanyards even when the guns were equipped with the swivels.
During the time when the US cavalry actually mattered, their handguns had no lanyards. US military revolvers weren't equipped with a lanyard until the 1901 iteration of the .38 Colts, but there is no evidence any regular actual use of lanyards by the troops ensued. Nor did that happen on the 1911. There were lanyards for the Victory in WW II, but on photos of the guns in action, for example with pilots in the Pacific, nary a lanyard in evidence.
That's in marked contrast to the British, who always considered lanyards a basic requirement for a service handgun.
S&W revolvers could be ordered with the swivel at all times, but I would not assume that as the default unless you have some specific evidence of that. There are some police departments that ordered swivels on their guns, and some guns are found with post-factory swivels, but overall very few.
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Service Model 1911s and 1911A1s always had a lanyard ring. But only the Cavalry issued lanyard chords on a regular basis, as well as 45 auto magazines with lanyard rings.
To this day S&W will supply lanyard swivels if ordered (mostly for foreign orders):
Mod 36-6 shipped circa 4th quarter 2000. Photos by PH-2:
And indicated on box label as "SPECIAL":
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