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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 10-18-2018, 05:40 PM
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Default Condition inquiry: "slightly frosted"

Looking at a hand ejector from one of the respected auction houses and I asked about condition. The response was that the barrel had good rifling but was slightly frosted.
So, are these descriptions pretty accurate?
I have another hand ejector that has a pretty scuzzy barrel that shoots great, but of course I didn't pay much for it. Does barrel condition have a big effect on value ( assuming it's not completely toasted)?
Thanks, it's my first auction so I'm a little cautious.
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
Looking at a hand ejector from one of the respected auction houses and I asked about condition. The response was that the barrel had good rifling but was slightly frosted.
So, are these descriptions pretty accurate?
I have another hand ejector that has a pretty scuzzy barrel that shoots great, but of course I didn't pay much for it. Does barrel condition have a big effect on value ( assuming it's not completely toasted)?
Thanks, it's my first auction so I'm a little cautious.
WELCOME TO THE THE FORUM.....

IMHO---"slightly frosted" IS AN AMBIGUOUS TERM, NOT REFERENCED IN THE NRA SYSTEM OF GRADING FIREARMS, OR ANY OTHER LEGITIMATE SYSTEM--BLUE BOOK, GUN DIGEST, SHOTGUN NEWS, ETC--THAT IS GENERALLY RELIED UPON IN THE GUN TRADING BUSINESS....
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:01 PM
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If you are looking to buy a collectable, you want the condition to be as near to perfect as possible. If you are buying a shooter, a non pitted but frosty bore should be a good shooter.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:05 PM
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I think the term "slightly frosted" is how you'll feel once you've bought it.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
If you are looking to buy a collectable, you want the condition to be as near to perfect as possible. If you are buying a shooter, a non pitted but frosty bore should be a good shooter.
I would agree except would say - you want the condition to be as near to perfect as you can afford.

To me, if the description says mirror bore, you pretty much know what to expect. Frosted can mean anything from satin to slightly roughened or pitted surface. Bores seem not to be the #1 issue to concentrate on when buying a vintage revolver, but should affect the value. It most likely will shoot great as long as the rifling is present.
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:21 PM
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Perhaps you should ask if "slightly frosted" means thoroughly covered with small pits. That's my guess at what it means. Another way barrels like that are described is having a dark bore. Many shoot well, especially with jacketed bullets, but I'd rather spend my time and reloading components on a revolver with a little pitting on the outside that still has excellent condition chambers and bore. The value it would have to shooters of collectable S&Ws if it was in very good condition is irrelevant. Remember, any gun with rust anywhere that can not be wiped off grades no better than NRA good.

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Old 10-18-2018, 07:34 PM
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Slightly frosted may equal "sewer pipe."
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Old 10-18-2018, 07:47 PM
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I do note that they didn't supply pictures. The outside is over 80% original finish, but I'm not looking for a cabinet queen.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:14 PM
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Looking at a hand ejector from one of the respected auction houses and I asked about condition. The response was that the barrel had good rifling but was slightly frosted.
...
You had to ask them about condition before that little fact was revealed? Makes me wonder what else hasn't been disclosed.

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I do note that they didn't supply pictures. The outside is over 80% original finish, but I'm not looking for a cabinet queen.
No pictures? How do you know it's 80%?

It seems like getting information from them is akin to pulling teeth. Unless this one is so rare that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, I would suggest you just wait for a better one, from a better vendor.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:38 PM
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No pictures? How do you know it's 80%?

It seems like getting information from them is akin to pulling teeth. Unless this one is so rare that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, I would suggest you just wait for a better one, from a better vendor.
The only pictures were of the outside. I thought Rock Island was one of the better auctioneers.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:49 PM
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"--------a little cautious" is not cautious enough.

Cautious enough is eyes on/hands on BEFORE----your eyes and hands or those of a trusted colleague.

I know these things--------------been there---done that!! Learned my lessons the hard way.

You, on the other hand, are a wide eyed, enthusiastic, aficionado who can come up with a thousand reasons why everything's going to be alright.

Go with God.

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 10-18-2018, 09:13 PM
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My only advise is NEVER - NEVER - NEVER buy a firearm sight unseen. Anyone selling anything without detailed pictures of every square inch has something to hide.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:45 PM
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My only advise is NEVER - NEVER - NEVER buy a firearm sight unseen. Anyone selling anything without detailed pictures of every square inch has something to hide.
That's great advice for collectors of premium pieces, BUT.... I have done pretty well on auction sites looking for items with poor descriptions and bad pictures. Whether they were Victor cutting torches, camera lenses or S&W's. Buyer beware always, but sometimes the seller just isn't very proficient not trying to hoodwink you. Sometimes you win when you roll the dice.
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:10 PM
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You, on the other hand, are a wide eyed, enthusiastic, aficionado who can come up with a thousand reasons why everything's going to be alright.

Go with God.

Ralph Tremaine
I have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. If I were clueless, I never would have posted in the first place. Sheesh.

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Old 10-18-2018, 10:19 PM
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The only pictures were of the outside. I thought Rock Island was one of the better auctioneers.
Rock Island is one of the premier auction houses, but they focus on high end items.

They don’t spend the money on detail photos for lower end (lower end for their items) that they do on their higher end merchandise.

Be aware that they charge a significant buyers premium so factor that into your bidding.

Bargains can be had from premier auction houses, but often these are found in the multi gun lots found later in the auction.

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Old 10-18-2018, 10:27 PM
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I'd never expect a bore described as "slightly frosted" to be even lightly pitted. Slightly frosted should mean it's no longer shiny, but it should still be a good bore without pitting, or corrosion.
I'm not sure the term "good bore" and slightly frosted can't go together, but I wouldn't expect it to read "excellent" or "pitted", and "slightly frosted" in the same sentence. Seems like an acceptable description to me, but maybe I'm not seeing what others see?
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:44 PM
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Well, I did ask for further clarification. We'll have to see what they say. Online only so it's not like it's available for inspection.

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Old 10-19-2018, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
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If you are looking to buy a collectable, you want the condition to be as near to perfect as possible. If you are buying a shooter, a non pitted but frosty bore should be a good shooter.
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, MG---HOW DO YOU DEFINE A "frosty bore", AND WHAT GENERALLY ACCEPTED GRADING SYSTEM SUPPORTS YOUR OPINION ? ? ?

THE FUNCTION OF ANY GRADING SYSTEM IS TO PRECISELY DESCRIBE A FIREARM IN CRITERIA THAT ARE ABSOLUTE, AND IN CONCRETE TERMS, THAT ARE EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY ALL PARTIES THAT READ IT. IT IS USED TO ELIMINATE THE NEED FOR PERSONAL INTERPRETATION......

THE TERM "FROSTY" IS LEGITIMATELY USED BY COIN COLLECTORS IN THE GRADING SYSTEM OF THE AMERICAN NUMISMATIC ASSOCIATION. IT DESCRIBE THE ORIGINAL LUSTER OF NEWLY MINTED, UNCIRCULATED COINS.....

OBVIOUSLY---THAT HAS NO RELEVANCE TO THIS DISCUSSION......
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:31 AM
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I define a frosty bore as one that looked frosty-not polished, like a new bore looks, but like looking at the metal shelves in an old freezer or looking at a bullet that was cast at too hot of a temperature. Looking at the rib on a M65, which has a slight matte finish, if that finish was inside of the barrel, that could be described as a "frosty" finish.

IIRC, using the old corrosive primers without cleaning right away could cause a "frosty" barrel.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:33 AM
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Default response was that the barrel had good rifling but was slightly frosted. So, are these

"The response was that the barrel had good rifling but was slightly frosted.
So, are these descriptions pretty accurate?"

I guess that depends on the fellow who took a look.Who knows how critical his eye is, for such things.
"Slightly frosted" might also be a high condition rating for an old gun,yet not so great for something more recent.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:40 AM
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Not all gun terminology falls into typical NRA ratings. And although it was the NRA's intention to simplify things by making a grading system, it's so simple that it really isn't as accurate as we'd like, or need.
Frosty bore may not be an NRA rating, but it's certainly a term often used, and most knowledgeable gun collectors know exactly what it means.
The problem we have today is so many online auctions where buyers can't see the guns, and seller's descriptions are subjective to their opinions. Although we might know exactly what a frosty bore is, a buyer has to chance that the person using the terminology does too.
If there's doubt, then bid accordingly, or don't bid at all.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:25 AM
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The problem we have today is so many online auctions where buyers can't see the guns, and seller's descriptions are subjective to their opinions.
So how is that any different than the "old days" when folks bought off of Shotgun News, no photographs whatsoever and a minimal description to decrease the cost per word fee for the ad?
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:03 PM
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It is a lot different today, especially when auction houses often can not even identify the model they are selling correctly. Auction houses always push values, condition, rarity, etc. to the max when trying to sell online. We often do not have the option to even touch guns that we buy today. Were their scammers on Shotgun News in the past, absolutely and there was no way to communicate problems and issues to the masses back then so you never heard of issues. I have purchased from newspapers like that and been burned, which is one of the reasons why I will not buy from those sellers who are too lazy to properly describe and photograph their guns. It is a disservice to the buyers and a great disservice to the sellers.

There are lots of sad stories out their about many of the premier auction houses, including RIA. Why reward them with purchases of poorly detailed and photographed guns? It only makes them more bold in their valuations and descriptions and allows them to continue to raise buyer premiums.

Do I buy from online auction houses, absolutely. Mainly because there are many auctioneers out there that do the best they possibly can to describe and photo their inventory to ensure a happy customer. Many good companies take the same amount of time and effort in presenting their shooter grade guns as they spend detailing their top of the line guns, and then there are companies who give you a couple of photos of 4 to 6 guns they lump together in lots to get rid of them. and we continue to support them.
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:02 PM
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I think I was implying it must have been far worse in the Shotgun News days? How did it work when one purchased a firearm off of Shotgun News described as 90%+ and, when it arrived, the condition was as such--after the refinish. I imagine that there always had to be a return policy of sorts. At least today, even with poor quality photographs, maybe one might want several more and better photographs to verify the quality of an original specimen--but, even poor photographs could enable one to identify a refinish--and simply move on. For example, if a blued Triple Lock contains a blued (and not case coloured) hammer and trigger, can just eliminate as a possible purchase-- unless, of course, a refinished Triple Lock is desired.
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:15 AM
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Shotgun News was not all that different than say a Gunbroker Auction, but it seemed to be more of a collector base selling their personal collection. The people selling were far more knowledgeable than the average auction house employee. That doesn't mean a buyer couldn't be scammed back then, as anytime you buy sight unseen this is a possibility. But back in the SN days I bought a fair number of guns off SN and the one difference was being able to call and talk to the seller first! It was fairly easy to have a list of questions on a gun and from the responses decide if I wanted to send them money. There were occasions that the replies I got were too vague, and I passed on a gun. But I never made a purchase based on answers to my questions and didn't have the gun fulfill my hopes.
I can't get the same answers, or phone contact from sellers at auction houses, or online auctions. Either they don't know, or they wont take a phone call. So I tend to avoid most online auctions unless the price is very reasonable.
I did just win a gun from a local auction that had it online. Looked at pictures, and didn't call them. It was an estate sale with only about 8-10 guns amongst other stuff. I figured maybe the gun I wanted might be overlooked, so I bid half what it was worth. As I hoped, nobody bid much on it, and I won it for 2/3 of my max bid. So regardless of unknown things I might find when I pick it up, it was worth giving it a shot. Can't do this at internet auctions, or large auction houses as they have too many watchers, and nothing goes cheap.
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Old 10-21-2018, 01:55 PM
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Default Just gotta ask.

So I messaged them again asking for barrel and chamber pictures, which they promptly supplied. The condition is adequate for me seeing how it's a century old piece that I plan to shoot.

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Old 10-21-2018, 02:43 PM
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IIRC, using the old corrosive primers without cleaning right away could cause a "frosty" barrel.
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Frosty bore may not be an NRA rating, but it's certainly a term often used, and most knowledgeable gun collectors know exactly what it means.
Truly.
I use the term. I've heard it used for more than 50 years. I was looking at WW II guns when they were not yet 20 years old.
Military collectors have always used the term. US military ammo was corrosive till 1954. EVERYONE'S WW II ammo was corrosive, with the exception of 30 Carbine. The reason is that corrosive primers have a longer stable shelf life.
An M-1, 03, 1911, Mauser, P38, or Luger fired early in the Battle of the Bulge might not get cleaned for a day or two or more. They are quite likely to be frosty.
An M-1, 03, 1911, Arisaka, Nambu, or Type 14 fired during the assault of a Pacific island probably didn't get cleaned that night. They are quite likely to be frosty.


Corrosive primers, through a chemical process upon being fired, create potassium chloride or sodium chloride. Both are salts. Sodium chloride is in you salt shaker. Potassium chloride is very similar. BOTH are hygroscopic, meaning they attract and hold water. So, you have a bore which was just burned clean of all protective oils and coated with salt, often in humid situations. Light surface rust could form in a few hours. Once the rust forms, the original "shine" of the bore's surface is removed forever. It is frosty.

Surrendered, captured, abandoned, or just plain 'put away' in that state, and the rust will continue forever to one degree or another, depending on the current conditions.


TMI ?????
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Old 10-21-2018, 03:42 PM
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Slight frosting could cover a wide variety of bores depending on who's doing the grading. Rock Island is as respected as anyone, but even they can have a different standard than you or me.

I've bought guns with slightly frosted bores that only needed a good cleaning to get back to a mirror finish. I have no idea on Rock Islands cleaning protocol before putting items up for auction. Some of the smaller auction houses sell the guns as they receive them and occasionally the pictures look awful but the gun can clean up nicely.

If this is your first time trying to get an old S&W at an auction don't expect the gun to go anywhere near the value it's sitting at before the auction starts. Often times the final price can end up much higher than where the live bidding starts. Tons of collectors watch the Rock Island auctions and it's uncommon for a good deal to slip through. However the selection of guns can be amazing.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mm93 View Post
Not all gun terminology falls into typical NRA ratings. And although it was the NRA's intention to simplify things by making a grading system, it's so simple that it really isn't as accurate as we'd like, or need.
Frosty bore may not be an NRA rating, but it's certainly a term often used, and most knowledgeable gun collectors know exactly what it means.
The problem we have today is so many online auctions where buyers can't see the guns, and seller's descriptions are subjective to their opinions. Although we might know exactly what a frosty bore is, a buyer has to chance that the person using the terminology does too.
If there's doubt, then bid accordingly, or don't bid at all.
OF COURSE, WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, YOU REALIZE THAT THIS IS MERELY YOUR OPINION......

I HAVE BEEN IN THE FIREARMS HOBBY/SPORT FOR OVER 60 YEARS. WHILE I DON'T PRETEND TO BE ANY SORT OF AN EXPERT, I HAVE BOUGHT, SOLD AND TRADED, WELL OVER 100 GUNS, DURING THOSE OVER 6 DECADES. I CONDUCTED THESE TRANSACTIONS SIGHT UNSEEN, ON THE SHOTGUN NEWS---RELYING ON PHOTOS, AND SELLER'S DESCRIPTIONS, ON GUNBROKER OR OTHER AUCTION AND FORUM SITES---OR FACE TO FACE AT GUN SHOWS OR AT A LGS.....

NOT EVEN ONCE--IN ALL OF THOSE TRANSACTIONS--HAVE I USED, HEARD, OR READ THE TERM "FROSTY" TO DESCRIBE A BORE. ALL I CAN ASSUME IS THAT ACCORDING TO YOU, I AM NOT ONE OF THE "knowledge gun collectors" THAT YOU REFER TO......

FAR FROM BEING DISMAYED, OR FEELING SLIGHTED, I HAPPILY TAKE MY PLACE IN THE GROUP OF
"ORDINARY PEOPLE" THAT COMPRISE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THOSE IN THE HOBBY, INCLUDING THE OP, THAT FIND IT DIFFICULT TO RELY UPON THE TERMS USED BETWEEN MEMBERS OF YOUR ELITE GROUP, WITHOUT ANY ACCOMPANYING QUANTITATIVE EVIDENCE.......

IMHO---I WOULD VENTURE THAT LESS OF US WILL GET BURNED BY ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO USE THE NRA OR BLUE BOOK GRADING SYSTEMS WITH INTEGRITY, THAN DEALING WITH THE ELITE MINORITY, WHO BREATHE THE RARIFIED AIR OF GUN COLLECTING, AND USE WHAT WE CONSIDER TO BE IMPRECISE, AND/OR AMBIGUOUS TERMS.....
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Old 10-21-2018, 06:51 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is online now
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"NOT EVEN ONCE--IN ALL OF THOSE TRANSACTIONS--HAVE I USED, HEARD, OR READ THE TERM "FROSTY" TO DESCRIBE A BORE."

Well, bless your heart.
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