My good buddy Dale In Wy. told me when I first started
collecting if it was not what I wanted to wait and watch &
it would come around.

Last week I saw a Victory on one of the auction sites and
it looked decent. I watched and no one bid on it. I did, to
my surprise, I won it. All in, it cost me $323.25 with
transfer fee.

Today it came in, the gun store guys were more interested
in my Polymer80 glock than the Smith. (Kids!!)

After looking it over, I don't think it's been shot. It's full of
nasty smelly ordinance grease. Pulled the side plate and the
grease was in side it also. Still deciding if I should degrease it.

There is a slight turn ring. It's all matching (grips too).

The serial number puts it in the fall of 1942 manufacture date.

It has the flaming bomb stamp on the butt opposite the serial
number. I was hoping for a DSC gun but think this might be
a Maritime Commission or Navy gun. If that's the case when
lettered it might fall into the "Shipped to BFE Depot at XYZ"
category. I would much rather have, "shipped to Bob's paperclip
factory in Syracuse NY" but that will wait til next year when
I join the SWCA.

One thing makes me think that. The holster's one of the nondescript
navy ones as listed in Scott Meadows book "US Military Holsters and
Pistol Cartridge Boxes" on page 355, made between 1942 and 1945.
It smells of mildew. It's getting the coffee ground treatment next week.


And another good thing, since Victories were used until the Gulf War
I know it's rated for PGU-12B ammunition because units from Fort
Campbell KY carried them there. That means +P for ya'll raised in
the age of lawyers playing CYA.

Who would have thought they were +P rated.

Attached Images

	Vic right.jpg (59.9 KB, 224 views)
	Vic left.jpg (73.2 KB, 432 views)
	Vic SN.jpg (98.4 KB, 212 views)
	Vic Cyl.jpg (63.5 KB, 209 views)
	vic topstrap.jpg (33.0 KB, 192 views)

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never get out of the boat

Here are the J pegs of the holster

Attached Images

	holster left.jpg (68.4 KB, 101 views)
	holster right.jpg (63.7 KB, 102 views)

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never get out of the boat

They will handle +P, but for the life of me I can't see a reason to use them. A 158 Grn SWC standard velocity will do everything a +P will do without all the extra muzzle blast. That is one nice victory, and a early one to boot enjoy!

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Randy

There is nothing on the topstrap and only the flaming bomb on the butt, so in order of likelihood it’s a DSC contract, Maritime Commission, or maybe a Navy gun.

For an early one in that good a condition, regardless of stampings, Navy is by far the least likely; the latter were usually used, while quite a few of the former ended up spending the war guarding someone’s desk drawer

I really hope a DSC gun because they are by far (for me at least) the best for history.

__________________
never get out of the boat

I know what you mean.

Some years ago I acquired a Victory off GB just like yours, same condition and markings, in the V121-range, so a few months later. It lettered to the Maritime Commission.

But it was just too nice, no promise of an interesting history. So another forum member got the chance to buy it at my cost (well, adding the cost of letter and transfers), and shortly thereafter I found a somewhat more beat-up DSC gun with police marking and an interesting background, which I’m still much happier with

I don't follow some of the reasoning here. If I bought one with markings, I'd want a Navy gun, or one that might be. I carried a number of these in USAF service. Some were Navy marked; some not. I was told we'd bummed the lot from the USN to make up for shortages in acquiring our official .38, the Combat Masterpiece.

As for why one might want Plus P, the Hague Accords ban SWC or HP bullets and the basic .38 Special load is pretty anemic, especially in FMJ form, no expansion. But at Plus P velocity, it will penetrate well.

Seeing an enemy soldier coming at you with an AK-47 may stimulate some desire for Plus P ammo...the basic .38 load is infamous as a stopping power failure. Jeff Cooper wrote that it was about 50% effective with one shot stops in police work. And, yes, I was reading Cooper, Keith, et al even back in the 1960's.

Frankly, I mistrusted M-41 ball ammo and was greatly pleased when our NCOIC at Lowry AFB (Denver) went off base with unit funds and bought some .38 Hi-Velocity (.38-44) ammo. It was with 150 grain jacketed bullets, to comply with the Hague Accords, although we at that base were using it mainly in police work, not in combat with a declared enemy of the US. Until we got that better ammo, I often drew a .45 auto, when available.

I'm curious: why do some here prefer a DSC gun that might have been carried by some factory guard or the Maritime Commission or Coast Guard to a Victory Model used by the USN and maybe later by USAF? How is that more "historical" than the military-used guns? I've always thought the most glamorous use of those old rough-finished .38's was by Navy and USMC aircrews and by later USAF crews and police.

It has nothing to do with “glamour”. To me, another factor is significant:

That factor is the potential for provenance and more detailed knowledge about the gun. Military Victorys shipped to a central distribution point or depot like US Navy Oakland, and that’s what the letter will say and it’s the end of the line for the vast majority of these. You can fantasize where the gun might have gone from there, but it’s a dead end for research.

DSC guns on the other hand, after a few months in early 1942 where the DSC tried to handle physical distribution but quickly gave up, were shipped from the factory to the end user, who thus will show up in the letter and will often (although not always) provide opportunities to learn more.

So that Oakland-shipped Navy Victory may have been carried by a Marine pilot into combat in the Pacific, or sat neglected in the gun locker of some shore patrol boat on the California coast; no way to find out.

But my DSC Victory in the attached letter has real context; I’ve got a copy of the original DSC order through the SWHF, I have a picture and info about the chief, Kimberling, mentioned in the letter, and learned quite a bit about Louisville police in the 1940s. That’s what it’s all about.

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	2E632EFF-EF81-46C4-B3DD-6CA980CE30C8.jpg (85.2 KB, 91 views)
	5E593D75-2570-41BF-B035-79BD84D564FA.jpg (46.7 KB, 104 views)

I can't figure out what is best about your revolver, condition or price. I have 2 with close s/n's, one lettered to the Navy and waiting for the letter on the other. Both are somewhat worn. I agree with Absolom that your S&W sat out the war in a ready service locker or armory.

I am jealous. One of those has been on my want list as well. Nice find.

I once had a Victory that lettered to the O.S.S. It had a cracked forcing cone which most likely was caused by shooting +P ammo in it. These guns pre-date +P ammo so I don’t think it’s advisable to suggest that one “can” shoot +P ammo in them. You can shoot .38 Super out of a gun chambered for .38 Auto too, but I wouldn’t recommend that either.

Ken, +P pressures are simply the standard ammo pressures when the Victory was built. In the 1970's, SAAMI downgraded standard velocity from ~900 fps to 700-750 fps and called the lower pressure "standard." All pre-1970 M&Ps were designed to shoot "+P" from the beginning.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Cool gun, and the condition is amazing.
That is the first one I've seen with so many obvious machining marks - especially on the left side. Pretty easy to tell that they were cranking them out as quickly as possible for the war effort.

Mainstream +p is marketing hype. I have posted this photo many times around the Internet. A 1942 Navy contract VM that came with a bulged barrel so I swapped on a commercial 5" tube I got off ebay for 5 bucks. For fun I shot 500 rounds of Remington +P and 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125JHP@1150) to see if anything would happen. Wasn't surprised when nothing did.

BTW my letter said shipped as a Navy contract piece in Sept. 1942 to Springfield Armory. Don't know what that means. Navy guns went there for distribution?

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No life story has happy end.

It's beautiful Serger.

Doc,

I put +P in the tag line of this thread just to be snarky. In the
late 60's when I started reloading, 1000 FPS was the baseline
load data starting point for 38 special we used. So I knew how
tough the Vic is.

Since my gun is slightly more than 12K newer than the one you
lettered I hope it's not part of that contract (although having a
really clean Navy would be ok given my background).

BTW, I think you should have kept your old name and told those
who questioned it, using the Navy colloquialism,
to " go pound sand in your a..".

I still think your Oldenhoff Saxony gun is cool.

__________________
never get out of the boat

What somee here forget is that the METHOD of measuring pressure changed when those lower velocities were reported. They went from using longer pressure barrels to vented four-inch barrels.

I don't think powder charges in factory ammo actually changed.

S&W says that they warrant only steel framed guns made after 1957, when model numbers were assigned. Chic Gaylord in, Handgunner's Guide (1960) said that a S&W rep assured him then that the company was using new, stronger steel in M&P/Model 10 guns.

I'm aware that Saxon Pig/Art Doc and Mike Venturino have fired a lot of hotter ammo in 1940's guns. But I think they are to some extent skating on the built-in ability of those guns to accept higher pressures beyond what they were really meant to take. In other words, they're skating out where the ice is getting thinner.

When we got that .38-44 ammo in the USAF, we never fired it in practice. Used wadcutter ammo to qualify. I felt pretty confident that the Victory Model would accept a limited amount of this pressure, but wouldn't want to fire it much in those older guns. In the M-15 Combat Masterpiece, it was less a concern. I had read Gaylord's book as a teen, before enlisting.

Frankly, based on my first hand observations, many USAF personnel are not qualified to judge which .38 ammo to issue. Someone not knowing the difference could easily issue Plus P ammo for Victory Models or just decide that so little of that ammo would be fired by those pilots, that no accidents would occur. The ammo was probably bought with the Combat Masterpiece in mind, in the first place. The hot PGU-12 round that badly wore the M-15 was definitely designed with the newer guns in mind.

It shook guns loose so relatively soon that the AF used that as an argument, begging for a 9mm pistol, which they finally got in 1985, the Beretta M-9. BTW, one AF cop scored a one-shot kill on a man at about 80 yards with his M-9. Did any of you read Massad Ayoob's reports on that in, Guns or in, Am. Handgunner? He was able to interview the man, who killed a fellow shooting up a base with an AK-47.

I think I could do that, too, with the 9mm. And probably, with the Plus P .38. But I'd hate to have to do it with a .38 and the weak M-41 ball round!

BTW, I owned a M-1911-A1 .45 that had served the British before being sold as surplus. I shot it at milk jugs to 100 yards, and I think I could kill a man at that range with the .45, too. But the 9mm shoots flatter and the Beretta is more accurate.

Texas Star,

For what it's worth:

You are quite correct in your posts.

I don't hot rod my guns any more (Especially The Smith Revolvers).
I can't replace these treasures so why tear em up.

Reason being is as I got older I found rounds on target were much
better than noise and flame. So I tend to stick to the stuff that works.

I don't plan on shooting the Vic at all. I'm just respectfully being
the custodian of the memory of those who protected my country
and culture.

__________________
never get out of the boat

I have V89795 which lettered to US Navy, Oakland, CA in September 1942, for what it's worth . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Same here. That's definitely the roughest factory finish from S&W that I've ever seen! It's like they completely skipped a step in the process.

Tom K, you and BC38 commented of the lack of exterior finishing
in the Vic. Today I tried in spite of the really windy conditions here
to get a Pic of what the trigger area looks like. Kinda got it but
you can't see the striations on the top trigger guard. Still another view
when the Production management folks were saying, " get it out the door!".

Muss Muggins, thanks for the date on your Vic.

Attached Images

vic machining1.jpg (39.0 KB, 41 views)

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never get out of the boat

I have a Victory. I would never consider running +P through it. What purpose would that suit other than to risk degrading the old girl?

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Dave

I posted that to Rattle cages.
+p's about what the guns
were rated for.
I don't plan on shooting this Vic.

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never get out of the boat

In my 1939 Stoeger reprint, the M&P was not "rated" for .38 High Velocity or .38-44. Interestingly, the Colt OP and PPS were.

Yeah, pretty easy to see they were going for maximum quantity at that point. With the war going full bore and trying to keep up with demand for both our military and the Brits, it was definitely a time when function trumped beauty.
Neat old gun. The tool marks just make it unique and reflect the urgency of the situation at the time.

All comments about avoiding +P are based on the fallacy that it is a hot load.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

What do you base that conclusion on?

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You're shy a few manners.

Hot loads won't crack the forcing cone, they damage the cylinders. And as I said +P ain't hot.

__________________
No life story has happy end.

We've had these discussions for years.

My concern is that some don't realize that not all Plus P is equal. A .38-44 class load from Buffalo Bore is not the milder Remington load Art Doc used!

And some cannot distinguish between plain Plus P and the Plus P Plus made exclusively for police departments wanting to claim they issued .38 ammo, while really seeking near- .357 ballistics. Some of that ammo is out among the public now, and S&W reps told me that it wears guns at LEAST as badly as does hot 125 grain .357 ammo. The Plus P Plus is intended for use in .357s, but is headstamped as .38.

Many Victory Models are in the hands of the public, not just with collectors. One may be a man's only gun. If he thinks he needs Plus P for defending his home or protecting himself and his family from dangerous wildlife, he may load the ammo that he thinks gives him an edge. And Plus P does give that edge: it has proven much better in stopping violent felons than is the old "widowmaker" RNL std. .38 Special.

You bet I use Plus P in my (modern) .38's. And for indoors use in .357's, as the blast from a .357 indoors may damage hearing. I use normal .38 ammo on most paper targets, but real life handgun use is hardly confined to paper targets and tin cans. When life gets real and earnest and you have to kill before being killed, Plus P is the 38 ammo of choice, and some of the ivory tower collectors here need to wake up, smell the BBQ sauce, and concede its legitimate value!

Finally, I'm concerned that belittling all Plus P ammo may lead someone to fire it in old M&P revolvers that don't have heat-treated cylinders. THAT may well cause a cracked or blown cylinder. Ditto for Colt Army and Navy revolvers that will accept .38 Special as well as the correct .38 Long Colt in the chambers.

No fallacy, Doc. Go shoot some water bottles, soda pop, or cans of soup with the better Plus P ammo. Try it on jackrabbits. But not on cottontails or grouse that you plan to eat.

In the Victory Model, if I used one as a real life handgun, I'd probably load BB's warmer hard wadcutter ammo, which I think is normal pressure level.

Or, I'd just use Speer's and Federal's Plus P that I use in modern .38's, but not practice a lot with it. I don't think it'll blow a cylinder, but it will increase wear, especially cylinder endshake, better avoided.

This is contrary to the evidence that Combat Magnum (M-19, 66, and other K-Mags) can crack the thin flat on the forcing cone when shot extensively with hot ammo.

I've even seen pictures on one or both Ruger boards of a GP-100 that'd been subjected to a lot of very hot .357 ammo. It had a cracked barrel, right where a M-66 barrel would crack.

You're confusing a violent overload that WILL blow a cylinder with the cumulative effect of firing less hot, but warm, ammo over a period of time.

Allowing leading to build up in the forcing cone raises pressures,and probably accelerates the likelihood of a barrel cracking.