Minor collecting goal achived

[chiefdave]

Collecting post war S prefix M&P's was an offshoot of my Victory obsession and I wanted to have an example of all the standard barrel lengths and years shipped. The 5" example had to have a barrel transplant to put it back to in original configuration but the rest are all matching including stocks. The 2 incher was difficult to find at a price I could afford but after a year of searching I found one. Still looking for a 2" RB.

I do have a question about the 5/48 (my birth month and year) shipped short action. Would this fall into post war, pre 10 or transition category?

[JP@AK]

You are making progress, Dave. Nice group.

As for your question:
As you know, I'm not one who is in favor of referring to any of the S prefix M&P revolvers as "transitional." So, in my opinion, none of them should be so-labeled.

Second, all of the S prefix examples are "postwar." They shipped from early 1946 until late in the year 1948. I consider that entire period to be "early postwar" - the first two years of civilian production after WWII ended.

I also don't much care for the "pre-model" language. However, pretty much by common assent among collectors, the short action S prefix M&P is considered to be grouped with the C prefix guns made before model numbers appeared in 1958, as "pre-model 10" revolvers. In other words, the implementation of the short action with the "high speed" hammer is what makes it a "pre-model 10" because at that point it has everything (engineering-wise) that is the same as the Model 10 revolvers when they finally appeared. The front sight did change during that period, but that was hardly an engineering change.

So, instead of trying to split hairs, I would suggest you just consider all of these to be postwar M&P revolvers. "Early postwar" or "relatively early postwar," if you like.

[Muley Gil]

"Would this fall into post war, pre 10 or transition category?"

The quick, easy answer is: pre Model 10.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

...
I also don't much care for the "pre-model" language.
...

I am new to acquiring and learning about old s&w revolvers. My first pick-up was a .357 magnum. It seemed odd to me that it should be called a 'pre-model 27', given that when it was manufactured no one knew that there would ever be such a thing as a 27. On the other hand, the only .357 at the time was...the .357 magnum, so no confusion. By the mid-50's, saying that you had a .357 magnum wouldn't have been very descriptive. What would you have called it back then to distinguish it from a Highway Patrolman, combat magnum, etc? I guess a similar situation existed with the Colt pre-trooper.

Maybe just 'Smith & Wesson .357' to distinguish it from the 'Colt .357' and the others that came along with model names.

OP - great collecting goal and congratulations!

[ABPOS]

Originally Posted by runscott

I am new to acquiring and learning about old s&w revolvers. My first pick-up was a .357 magnum. It seemed odd to me that it should be called a 'pre-model 27', given that when it was manufactured no one knew that there would ever be such a thing as a 27. On the other hand, the only .357 at the time was...the .357 magnum, so no confusion. By the mid-50's, saying that you had a .357 magnum wouldn't have been very descriptive. What would you have called it back then to distinguish it from a Highway Patrolman, combat magnum, etc? I guess a similar situation existed with the Colt pre-trooper.

Maybe just 'Smith & Wesson .357' to distinguish it from the 'Colt .357' and the others that came along with model names.

OP - great collecting goal and congratulations!

Just having a conversation here and I'm still learning. But they wouldn't have called it a pre 27 back then. You probably realize that and it's probably silly for me to state this. But I THINK the reason they call it a "pre 27" is because it was basically a 27, before it had the number system. Just like a blued 1-7/8" J frame could possibly be called a Pre 36 even though it was called a chiefs special. Although to be honest, I'm not sure they use that terminology at all for the Chiefs. LOL. So I might be all wet.

But I think yours is probably closer to a 27 than a 28 cuz of the features. For sure the blueing on yours is probably more like the blueing on a 27 and maybe yours has the grooved top strap to cut down on glare staring down the sight channel. ????? A 28 has a low lustre blue, to cut down on costs and the lack of the metal work on top like the 27.

[runscott]

My apologies - I completely failed in trying to communicate my thoughts.

[g-dad]

Originally Posted by runscott

My apologies - I completely failed in trying to communicate my thoughts.

No need to apologize. I completely understood what you were asking. It makes good sense to me. Unfortunately I do not have an answer for you. But I am looking forward to other responses to your query.

[two-bit cowboy]

Congrats Chief. That's a mighty fine looking collection of postwar M&Ps.

I have focused on the 5" postwar M&Ps, but each time I see one of those snubbies I feel an itch.

Best of luck checking off that round butt box on your list!

[JP@AK]

Dave
I'll add a thought about your "missing piece" of the puzzle. There are plenty of 2" examples out there, but it does seem that the round butt 2" is the most difficult to acquire. They don't show up in the auctions nearly as often as the 4", 5" or even the 6". The latter seems to have been produced in the lowest numbers, with the 2" next, followed by 5" and 4" (the most plentiful). But the 2" guns are subdivided into SB and RB. I have come to the tentative conclusion that the square butt 2" was produced in greater quantities than the RB. At least, there are more of them indicated in my data than their SB brothers.

Also, when the 2" RB examples do become available, they tend to command higher prices than any of the others, assuming similar condition.

So, keep looking. You'll find one one of these days, at a price you are willing to pay. If you are lucky, it will wear original hard rubber stocks that number to it. I'm still looking for one of those myself! Lots of them were shipped, but I haven't acquired one yet, and I have more than two dozen SV and S prefix M&Ps in my safe.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by ABPOS

Just like a blued 1-7/8" J frame could possibly be called a Pre 36 even though it was called a chiefs special. Although to be honest, I'm not sure they use that terminology at all for the Chiefs. LOL. So I might be all wet.

The "Pre Model" label can be applied to any hand ejector of the same engineering design as when it was designated a Model #.

In the case of the Chiefs Special, the Model of 1953 CS qualifies as a Pre Model 36.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by ABPOS

But I think yours is probably closer to a 27 than a 28 cuz of the features. For sure the blueing on yours is probably more like the blueing on a 27 and maybe yours has the grooved top strap to cut down on glare staring down the sight channel. ????? A 28 has a low lustre blue, to cut down on costs and the lack of the metal work on top like the 27.

Yes, I have one of each: a .357 magnum and a Highway Patrolman. The finish alone makes them look very different.

[RKmesa]

Dave:

Great collection of S SN M&Ps.

Congrats,

[Green Frog]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

The "Pre Model" label can be applied to any hand ejector of the same engineering design as when it was designated a Model #.

In the case of the Chiefs Special, the Model of 1953 CS qualifies as a Pre Model 36.

Brother Hondo44, while technically this is right, it grates on my nerves to call any of the early Chief's Specials "pre-36s" since the current Model 36 is still referred to as a Chief's Special, not a "post-Chief's Special." While most of the other model names seem to have gone by the boards with model numbers (witness the Terrier, Hand Ejector, etc... even the M&P designation has been reassigned) the Chief appellation seems to still be alive and well. Just as an aside, I would definitely call a Model 32-1 a "post Terrier" since it had lost the "smallest S&W 38" cachet when it became a J-frame.

Rant over... back to the coffee. Here's hoping you are all having a very Happy 2019.

Froggie

[Hondo44]

Brother Froggie, I agree with you. In fact I don't care for the pre model moniker and I don't use it myself, only comment on it's misuse and clarify its proper use. And a 32-1 post I frame is truly a post Terrier!

I will pick a nit with "Chief's" Special. Chiefs is plural but not possessive.

[skeezix]

Good effort, chiefdave!

Here's my "S" collection of early post-war M&Ps - one in each barrel length. All have matching stocks except the 5-inch. The 2-inch and 4-inch are lettered to police departments.

SWMP 4 ann copy.JPG

I was lucky enough to put this group together in only a couple of months, thanks to other SWF members.

[chiefdave]

Originally Posted by skeezix

Good effort, chiefdave!

Here's my "S" collection of early post-war M&Ps - one in each barrel length. All have matching stocks except the 5-inch. The 2-inch and 4-inch are lettered to police departments.

Attachment 374049

I was lucky enough to put this group together in only a couple of months, thanks to other SWF members.

Very nice looking set. It took me a good deal longer but I'm on a fixed income and look for the bargains. I did spring for $700 on the 2" but the other 4 were half that or less apiece.

[mm93]

I like the names S&W put on the boxes, or their advertisements for their various models. Collectors always tend to come up with their own names, but I try to use the S&W names myself.

[mikepriwer]

The S-series revolvers represent several different things.

First, we have to keep in mind that WW2 had ended, and, according to Roy's book, the factory dropped the V prefix. However, they needed to do something to the serial number, so that, for the purpose of the records, the guns would be distinguished from the 1st million K-frames. So, the used the S, which is supposed to mean the new hammer safety.

Second, the factory had already decided to redesign the entire K-frame line. Since it was going to have a different serial number construct, the S-prefix was only going to be temporary, until the new serial number series was ready to use with the redesigned guns.

Third, then, these guns are not transitional, but rather the end of the second series of K-frame serial numbers.
They are not pre-model 10's, because the model 10 was a redesigned gun. They are just the end of the second million K-frames.

The S-series guns, therefore, are, in part, a parts-clean-up operation. Some were made with the old hammer safety, yet have the S-prefix serial number. This really means, to me, that during this period, the S really meant the continuation of the second million K-frame series, of which the V-prefix was most of the guns. As I mentioned above, this was vitally necessary to distinguish the serial numbers from the first million guns.

Regards, Mike Priwer

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

Some were made with the old hammer safety, yet have the S-prefix serial number.

Mike
Do you actually have evidence of this? I've looked at more than a thousand examples of the S prefix M&P and I have never found one that fits this description. If what you say is true, it would be something I'd like to include in my research project, which has been ongoing now for more than 5 years.

It strikes me as odd, since the new hammer block was introduced into production in December, 1944, more than a year before any postwar guns shipped to distributors and about 9 months before the first S prefix civilian gun was assembled.

I respect you too much to say that you are wrong about this, I would just like to know what the evidence for it is.

Thanks!

[ABPOS]

Originally Posted by runscott

Yes, I have one of each: a .357 magnum and a Highway Patrolman. The finish alone makes them look very different.

I'm just going to start assuming everyone else knows a lot more than I do on here. I learn a little bit and want to add to the conversation and most of the time what I say isn't even necessary. I guess I totally missed what you were saying. Which also just shows me my communications skills are lacking. LOL. Sorry about that. I was sincerely trying to help.

I reread your post again to try to make sure I understand it and it makes more sense to me but brings up another question. LOL. I see what you're saying, like what did they call the "Pre 27" to distinguish it from other .357 models. But I thought the Highway Patrolman was specifically a Model 28. Like the 2 are indistinguishable. I didn't know there was a Highway Patrolman BEFORE a model 28. I'll have to look that up now...... Now, if I'm correct, were there any other .357's in production at the time of an N frame .357 "Pre 27"... I know of one called the Registered Magnum and I thought that was all there was in between the wars...

Now I'm all confused. I just confused myself more. Because the numbers came well after the war, eh? LOL. Ugh...

[ABPOS]

OK, after reading wiki, if it is correct, I think I might understand.

There was a "Highway Patrolman" before it was named the 28. The Register Magnum morphed into the .357 Magnum which eventually got the number 27.

So according to wiki they called it the .357 Magnum and the only other one would've been the Highway Patrolman at one point. At one point the Registered Magnum was the only .357 N frame and the cops wanted a cheaper version. So smith put out the Highway Patrolman.

Does all this sound correct?

[ABPOS]

And to muddy the waters further, I didn't think Smith officially still called a 36 a "Chief's Special".

Is this slang? Because now that makes me think of the Bodyguard. I don't know it's officially a bodygaurd but since that's what they were called for so long, we still do......


Thank you all for your patience and listening to me ramble. I'm trying to understand it correctly. And I may be a little slow sometimes.

[mikepriwer]

Jack

You know I wouldn't tell such stories without lots and lots of evidence. Caleb Brown has the gun that the following paragraph describes, taken from a story for the Journal that I have submitted.

833957 was a pre-WW2 frame and side-plate that had not been serial-numbered pre-WW2. We know that it is a pre-WW2 frame, because it has the early pre-WW2 hammer safety. In 1946, it was serial-numbered as S833957, but the S was left off the butt; it’s simply stamped 833957. (This may have occurred because of the early pre-WW2 hammer safety.) The “S” was, however, stamped on the frame and on the flat under the barrel. The pre-WW2 serial number 833957 is a 38-200, shipped about 1940. (S)833957 is, therefore, a mixed-vintage 2” .38, shipped post-WW2.

There is actually 100 consecutive serial-numbered guns in this serial number range.

This is an example of some that are known, because they are known to exist, in someones collection, and have been lettered. I feel comfortable saying that there are probably others. This is what comes from a parts clean-up operation.

Regards, Mike

[runscott]

haha. My apology was sincere - when I read your response, then re-read my post, I realized how confusing it could have been.

Everything I know about s&w's I learned here, but so far it has all made sense. I just wish I had read up more on them before I bought a couple. I thought I knew what I was doing, but I have made a few dumb mistakes. I might provide examples when I am feeling more self-confidence.

[M29since14]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

...I will pick a nit with "Chief's" Special. Chiefs is plural but not possessive.

I’ll take it you are correct so thank you for pointing out that - all these years I have somehow glossed it over.

If you consider it, it makes no sense.
Chief’s Special = yes (and most logical)
Chiefs’ Special = yes
Chiefs’ Specials = yes
Chiefs Special =

Maybe I’m missing something? In any case, I’ll accept your authority.

OP... nice whatever-they-ares!

[runscott]

Originally Posted by ABPOS

OK, after reading wiki, if it is correct, I think I might understand.

There was a "Highway Patrolman" before it was named the 28. The Register Magnum morphed into the .357 Magnum which eventually got the number 27.

So according to wiki they called it the .357 Magnum and the only other one would've been the Highway Patrolman at one point. At one point the Registered Magnum was the only .357 N frame and the cops wanted a cheaper version. So smith put out the Highway Patrolman.

Does all this sound correct?

Yes except the registered part was over by the time the Patrolman came about. I believe the price difference was something like $109 vs $129.

You need to get a copy of the 'Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson'. It is pricey but imperative given your interests. The pages on the history of the .357 magnum alone will keep you away from the television for several hours.

[ABPOS]

Originally Posted by runscott

Yes except the registered part was over by the time the Patrolman came about. I believe the price difference was something like $109 vs $129.

You need to get a copy of the 'Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson'. It is pricey but imperative given your interests. The pages on the history of the .357 magnum alone will keep you away from the television for several hours.

I'll have to look out for that book and request it for Christmas from my wife or something.... Or keep an eye out for it cheap. I would like a Kuhnhausen book too. (however you spell it)

I'm actually not much of a .357 fan boy. I respect it, I dig it. But for me it's all about the specials. .38 and .44. My druthers for an N frame would be a .44 and the rest is all about .38 special. J's and K's. Although throw a good .22 in there because you just have to... LOL. I'm not a fan of L frames. I also respect them and dig them. But they're not my passion. A full underlug I like how it looks the least. I know, kind of a stupid reason. I wouldn't refuse one if someone gave me one though. LOL. I'd probably end up liking it the most. hehehehehe

I could be coaxed to like .45 acp in a revolver too, but I personally like the idea of .44's better. I'm not into moon clips. I like the flexibilty of single loading, speed strips and speed loaders.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by ABPOS

I'll have to look out for that book and request it for Christmas from my wife or something.... Or keep an eye out for it cheap. I'm actually not much of a .357 fan boy. I respect it, I dig it. But for me it's all about the specials. .38 and .44. My druthers for an N frame would be a .44 and the rest is all about .38. Although throw a good .22 in there because you just have to... LOL.

I could be coaxed to like .45 acp in a revolver too, but I personally like the idea of .44's better. I'm not into moon clips. I like the flexibilty of single loading, speed strips and speed loaders.

Interesting take on the various calibers. My first gun was a Ruger .22 and I loved it, so I understand that need. Some day I will pick up an old flat-latch to replace the one I sold.

[ABPOS]

A j frame is a thing of beauty. It's so convenient and I actually shoot mine better than I thought I would. It's good enough for personal protection and I've stretched it out with some varying degree of success. I'm still kind of on the hunt for the perfect grip. One not to big but not too small and keeps the gun put. There doesn't seem to be the right option that I've tried yet.

And then there is the trigger on the Model 19. Man my Model 19's trigger is......... SO GOOD. It's so silky smooth. It is not super duper light, but it feels really good and allows some decent shooting. I mean it feels like they proverbial on ball bearings.... Swiss timepiece... No grit or slop. Just gooooood.

I think you owe it to yourself to try a model 10 and some sort of J frame. Hehehehe. Or go for the Gold and get a 19 or 66. I guess the road of encouragement goes both ways. LOL.

[JP@AK]

Mike Priwer

Very helpful. Thanks for the reply. I greatly appreciate it.

Edit: I checked my database. I show 100 examples of round butt 2" guns in the range S833858 to S833958. I assume this is the 100 you are speaking of here, since Caleb's gun fits within that range (barely).

Interestingly, I also find a 2" RB that shipped in September, 1946, that actually has a prewar serial number - 694074. It was in a shipment of 10 units to a store in Washington state. I presume those (or at least that one) would also lack the sliding hammer block safety. But, of course, it does not carry an S prefix serial number. I do not know anything about the other nine guns in the shipment, but would love to find out. I'll add that to the list of items to ask Roy about as I progress in this research project. He has a printout of my database as of May, 2018. I believe that would include these items, since I'm sure I added those entries prior to that time.

[mikepriwer]

Jack

Caleb has 694101, and I have 694105. Both guns have a pre-WW2 serial number, and shipped in Aug 1946. Both have the pre-WW2 hammer safety. Calebs has the S stamped several places, but its not part of the serial number. Mine does not have an S stamped anywhere. Other than the S, the two guns are identical.

Both of these guns are part of the story for the Journal.

Regards, Mike

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

Jack

Caleb has 694101, and I have 694105. Both guns have a pre-WW2 serial number, and shipped in Aug 1946. Both have the pre-WW2 hammer safety. Calebs has the S stamped several places, but its not part of the serial number. Mine does not have an S stamped anywhere. Other than the S, the two guns are identical.

Both of these guns are part of the story for the Journal.

Regards, Mike

Super, Mike. Thank you. I will look for the article in an upcoming Journal. I plan to write a piece for the Journal on the overall history of the S prefix guns, once I'm satisfied that I have sufficient data compiled. This new information is extremely helpful in that regard. It puts an interesting wrinkle into the narrative of those fascinating two years.

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by mikepriwer

Caleb has 694101, and I have 694105.

I assume both have 2" barrels. Did either or both ship with black hard rubber stocks? Others I have found in this general serial range did.

[mikepriwer]

Jack

694105 shipped with black rubber grips. I don't know if Caleb lettered 694101 - right now it has concave non-medallion wood grips, which is not how it shipped.

694106, that I have not mentioned, shipped in the summer of 1940, with silver medallion walnut grips. It went to Boston PD. Because it was an LEO gun, it was exempt from the ban on commercial sales at that time.

That ban is kind of strange, because it seems to have affected only 2" round-butt M&P's.
The factory notified commercial customers ordering 2" RB guns that they were order-booked on those, but did have some 2" square butt guns they could ship.

Regards, Mike

[mbliss57]

JP@akSecond, all of the S prefix examples are "postwar." They shipped from early 1946 until late in the year 1948. I consider that entire period to be "early postwar" - the first two years of civilian production after WWII ended.

I also don't much care for the "pre-model" language. However, pretty much by common assent among collectors, the short action S prefix M&P is considered to be grouped with the C prefix guns made before model numbers appeared in 1958, as "pre-model 10" revolvers. In other words, the implementation of the short action with the "high speed" hammer is what makes it a "pre-model 10" because at that point it has everything (engineering-wise) that is the same as the Model 10 revolvers when they finally appeared. The front sight did change during that period, but that was hardly an engineering change.

So, instead of trying to split hairs, I would suggest you just consider all of these to be postwar M&P revolvers. "Early postwar" or "relatively early postwar," if you like.
__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Jack,
I am not sure I agree based on what Mike has already written.
2 other differences:
1. One (1) line address vs 4 line address
2. LERK vs small ejector knobs. Of course LERKs are not common but still part of that clean up Mike is referring to.
I know when I look for Post War M&Ps the 1st thing I look at is the S prefix vs C because I know if it's an S there may be some subtle oddities found. When I know it's a C prefix I am sure it's a Pre Model 10 design.
Please help me understand if I have this wrong. It wouldn't be the 1st time.

[JP@AK]

mbliss57
Just a couple thoughts:
1. The one line vs. four line address certainly is not in any sense an engineering change. Moreover, no S prefix gun had the four line address and there were a few C prefix guns that lacked it. The switch to the C prefix and the addition of the Spanish trade mark language came about incidentally at about the same time, but they were not related to one another otherwise. It is difficult to see how this affects the terminology of "pre-model 10" in any way.

2. The large rod end that was a design carryover from the 1927-1945 period disappeared from the M&P by the end of April, 1947; so about half way into S prefix production. The change order wasn't issued until October 4, 1946. It seems to me this was more than a "use up old parts" process. There is no reason to believe that all the rods with the barrel shaped end were simply leftovers from the prewar or wartime period, given that management did not tell the supervisors to stop using them until nearly 8 months after postwar civilian shipping started. It then took several more months for them to disappear from current production guns. By then the SV marked guns were long gone and, I believe, many, if not most, of the S gun frames were forged after the war ended. A plugged swivel hole may be the best indicator that a particular frame is left over from the pre-August, 1945, period. It would certainly be a more logical test than the shape of the extractor rod.

Anyway, those are some matters to consider.

[Art Doc]

As you know I don't care what anybody calls anything but I could offer a suggestion on terminology. How about "Post War, Long Action" to separate the early 1946-48 versions from the later, Short Action models?

Just a thought.