Although not at all new to Smiths, I am definitely new to these old ones and would like you knowledgeable guys' brutal opinions on this piece. FYI, I am not a "serious" collector but rather an enthusiast who has a deep appreciation for S&W revolvers and enjoy not only owning them but shooting them, handling them and allowing family and close friends to do the same.
Last weekend at a local gun auction I somewhat impulsively bid on this Brazilian simply because someone else started it at $275 and nobody else was getting into the game. Prices had been surprisingly low on other revolvers that day (for example, a super nice 4-inch 19-5 with 3-T's went for only $375!), and after bidding just once, it ended up being mine for $300.
None of my pictures truly do justice to the finish and the deep blue doesn't have a scratch on it. It has obviously been refinished, but the frame, cylinder and barrel all have matching SN's of 199,8xx (I haven't yet pulled the sideplate to check to see if it's the original or not). The rollstamps are definitely polished but legible. The backstrap is stamped 18023 (or perhaps 18923), the Altamont grips are hideous, and whoever did the bluing job unfortunately also polished and blued the trigger and hammer. The bore is fairly bright with no apparent pitting and the lanyard ring is MIA. Lockup is definitely not as tight as some of my newer K, L and N-frames, but that doesn't seem too surprising and the endshake feels ok-to-good.
After quickly loading up some 230gr LRN in front of 4.7gr of 700-X after work this evening, it was a race to get outside to shoot it while the target was still visible in the dimming light. For not being able to see the target very well nor having the time to work up a load I was fairly impressed with the accuracy, and both my 15 year old son and I thought that the recoil was somewhat similar to a .38 Special.
I would love to find some reasonable nice period-correct grips for a reasonable price (whatever that means) and also replace the lanyard ring.
So please give your honest opinions on this thing. Aside from the questions below, I would like to hear your thoughts, whatever they are.
1. I have no intentions of selling this piece of history, but considering all the details above how did I do price-wise and what should be considered a fair market value?
2. Is it possible to know the approximate ship date based on the 199,8xx SN without spending $100 on Roy Jinks, as cool as it would indeed be to have a letter?
3. When considering grips, which one would likely be correct; checkered with the medallion?
4. What is the significance of the "X" stamped on the side of the frame, under the grip, close to the lanyard hole? I can't find any other numbers that would correspond to an official S&W refurbishment.
5. Should I go for the matte-finished lanyard ring from Numrich for $17 or is there a better option without spending too much more?
6. Is it true that this most likely saw duty in Italy, based on other information found online?
Thank you in advance.

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Looks pretty decent for a re-blue. That looks like a Brazilian seal on the side plate, so it shipped in 1938. Can you post a close-up?

The x looks like a fitter's mark. The proper grips would be checkered service grips with silver medallions. The grips shown are Magnas for a K frame. The Numrich lanyard ring should be fine.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Congrats. Hard to beat that price. Likely an original finished example would be a little more even with wear and tear from the war and original grips.

Muley Gil above about sums it up.

Whoever reblued it didn't realize the heat treated cyl needs more time in the bluing salts, hence the purplish hue.

I haven't seen a factory mainspring with an end like that. Possibly an after market, lighter or just replacement spring. I don't know for sure.

The #18023 (or perhaps 18923) is likely a Brazilian military inventory #.

The sideplate won't match the serial 199,8xx, but it will match the assembly #s on the yoke and the yoke cut out in the frame.

That s/n does appear to be the 1937 contract.

MODEL 1917 ARMY BRAZILIAN CONTRACTS (1937 & 1946)

In 1937 S&W made some 25,000 of the Model 1917 Army under contract for Brazil, most in serial range 181983-207043 with exceptions as usual that have serial #s far out of this range, most using the post WW I 1930’s produced flat top frame with sq notch rear sight (as did all N frames since the 1926/1927 time frame with no model name changes to differentiate), and these are stamped “MADE IN U.S.A.” on right frame side with the S&W trademark on left side of frame. They also have a Brazilian Crest on the side plate dated 1937. These first Brazilian 1917 ARMY contract revolvers had 1930s commercial checkered Svc grips with flat chrome plated medallions. Many will have cyl hold open detents. Use caution if you remove the yoke.


The 2nd contract Model 1917 Army Brazilian run was in 1946 of about 11,000+ total; most with older pre 1926/1927 style round top strap and small U notch rear sight. This is why most ~9000 Brazilians do not have post war sliding bar safeties and likely not side plate safeties, but may have cyl hold open detents. Use caution if you remove the yoke.
Most, ~9000, using surplus WW I produced frames in the 166,000 – 175,150 range with many exceptions as usual that have serial #s far out of this range. And ~2500 were the newer flat top frames generally in the 207,196 – 209,878 range, with a few round tops also reported in that range. These '46 contract guns had WW I surplus 1917 smooth grips both concave and convex tops, and are also stamped “MADE IN U.S.A.” However, the butt serial #s read with barrel to the left like all post war hand ejectors, and is the easiest way to know for which contract the gun was built.


Brazilians of both periods can be found with the import mark of the importer that brought them back to the USA. One common importer stamp is "IA CO SAC CA" (International Arms Company, Sacramento, California) but stamps of other big importers of surplus arms can be observed as well.


Brazilians have myriad anomalies. S&W clearly used re-purchased (from the government), and scoured old parts inventory for frames and pieces to assemble them. One can honestly say that you will see every combination of 1917 frames and parts of multiple vintages assembled, that one can conjure up! There are some trends but the old adage that: "The main rule is, there are no rules." truly applies in no other case as well as it does here.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I'm not able to take a picture at the moment but can verify that it is indeed the Brazilian crest, if that's what you're trying to determine. Let me know if you want a picture for reasons beyond that.

Thank you, I couldn't imagine an N-frame in good shape (refinished or not) being worth any less than $300.

Yes, the mainspring appears to be aftermarket. I was surprised at how heavy the hammer feels when cocking it but have never held another 1917 to compare it.

The cylinder swings freely and doesn't give any indication of having an detent.

I can find no importer marks unless they've been polished out, but if that's what happened someone did a very good job of it.

No, no extra pics are necessary. I just wanted to confirm the Brazilian crest.

Navy Arms imported a bunch of Brazilian 1917s. They usually marked them on the grip strap as NAVY ARMS RLFD NJ, (Ridgefield NJ).

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I don't think you ever will find one for less. Since it shoots fine, you got a very good deal.

It is highly likely it went to Italy with the Brazilian Expeditionary Force in WWII.

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You're shy a few manners.

You will also find a factory mainspring at Gun Parts Dist. (Numrich).

Lanyard swivels were color case hardened on military guns until the Dec 20, 1944 Eng Order changed Case colored to parkerized matte finish.

CCH swivel, is the correct one for 1917s, .455s, and 1937 Brazilians:


Photo credit: lestert357

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I really like 1917 revolvers. I have both Colt and S&W versions made in 1918. Both all original and in great condition. Yours is another story. The gun is most certainly worth $300 if the the mechanics are okay, but I wouldn't put another dime into it except for a good set of stocks for shooting it. Consider yourself lucky to have gotten a nice shooter at a good price and enjoy it for what it is.

I suppose the CCH rings are difficult and expensive to come by...
As for the mainspring, I'm not too worried about it having an aftermarket one although it does seem awfully heavy.

Pretty much my opinion, although the lanyard ring would be a nice touch.

You can always get a reproduction one. Really though, unless you attach a lanyard to it, they aren't really good for anything and just in the way.

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You're shy a few manners.

That might be a round top frame from the 1946 order.
Please post a pic of the top of the frame- where the rear sight notch is.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

The serial number fits nicely in the First Group (1938ish) so I am betting on a square notch rear sight. Of course with S&W, you never really know.

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You're shy a few manners.

Here are a couple of pictures; hopefully they're clear enough for you.

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First Group most likely ... but didn't some with the square notch rear sight also get shipped in the Second Group?

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You're shy a few manners.

I'd say you got yourself a great example of a refinished Brazilian Model. I'm a fan and always on the look-out for one that has not been re-finished. Like your's mine was nicely re-blued, I ended up having it shortened to 4" with a Baughman style front sight added and the addition of a "Wondersight". For awhile it was one of my favorite shooters but it led me down the path of .45ACP revolver ownership which I was totally ignorant about until the Brazilian came along. For some reason that whole .45ACP revolver thing went right over my head as I was getting along just fine with .38/.357, .44SP/.44Mag, etc. I hope you have as much fun with yours as I have with mine.
If you don't reload to feed a 1911 or similar .45ACP and want to reload for this revolver consider going past Go and directly to .45 Auto Rim. The Auto Rim was developed by Peters back in the day, maybe in the 30's to allow people like myself that want to load their revolvers in the manner we are accustomed to. The Auto Rim has a rim added which allows for extraction without the use of any of the moon clip variations that to some of us are unnecessary contraptions and one more thing to go wrong. I own a few .45 pistols chambered in .45ACP but do not shoot them as much as other calibers, I bought some .45Auto Rim cases and use them in all of my .45ACP revolvers which include the Model of 1950 and 1955 which is that path the Brazilian got me started down, be careful...once you start down that path it can turn into a slippery slope in a hurry. If you haven't had a chance to shoot .45acp/Auto Rim in a heavy barreled N-frame revolver you are in for a real treat, recoil is all but non existent, accuracy is legendary and grin factor off the chart. Not to mention the fact that if you reload it is about the cheapest game in town, especially if you cast your own bullets which is another dangerous path with attendant slippery slopes.
Have fun with it, you got yourself a dandy.

This one #170763 has smooth grips that with numbers stamped that match the gun.

This is the only S&W I own that does not have a letter. Not worth it since the price went up. It too is second shipment. I had another 1917 that I got a letter for and it said checkered grips with medallion. So I thinks they used both in the second shipment. Wilson Combat stocks a hammer spring that will work nicely for you and Numrich will have the butt swivel and pin. You may find import marks on the bottom of the barrel.

I think you did good. Get a handful of moon clips and have fun. These 1917's are hidden gems, great shooting reliable accurate tough and good looking.

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Daniel
SWHF 616

Yes, that is from the Pre War shipment. I do not believe any of the 1946 guns were Flat Tops. When I see a Flat Top LETTERED to the 1946 deal, I'll believe it.
I thought the OP's gun might be a Round Top because the "Made in USA" is not visible. That took a lot of buffing. It was on both orders, but it was smaller and shallower on some of the 46 guns.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Thank you for the encouraging words, Kinman. It's very evident that I'm already well on the way down the slippery slope and have been for quite some time, now. Being a reloader, I was fortunate to get a great deal on some Auto Rim brass earlier this week and over the last year or so have accumulated pretty much all the necessary things to start casting. I've melted down a bunch of range brass and pure lead into ingots but have not yet actually filled any moulds.
My favorite calibers to reload and shoot are probably 38/357, .41 Mag (.41 Special is another one yet to try) and .45 Colt, but after shooting this one with some .45 ACP brass that I already had on hand and experiencing the .38 Special-like recoil it definitely makes it into my favorites list. My 15-year-old son thought it was pretty cool, too.
Although this Brazilian is not a true collector's piece, it's something that can be shot and handled without guilt, all the while knowing that 75 years ago it very possibly was used to help conquer the Axis powers. That's a pretty awesome thing.

Yes, it's quite unfortunate that it was apparently buffed away, but it's something I can live with all things considered.

"I've melted down a bunch of range brass and pure lead into ingots..."

You must have a really hot furnace.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Well, a turkey fryer burner with a cast iron Dutch oven works pretty well.

BTW, while the 230gr RN is the classic .45 ACP round, I recently picked up a large quantity of 200gr LRN bullets and was wondering if it might be better to use those so as not to pound on the old girl quite as heavily. I have several options for pistol powder on hand.

I wouldn't say they are not a collector's piece, it's just that locating one in a condition acceptable to a collector doesn't often happen.

These Brazilians, especially the ones in the First Group, saw hard use in rugged conditions. To add insult to injury, many of us speculate that when they were re-imported to the US, packaging and handling were deplorable.

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You're shy a few manners.

What I meant was since this one in particular has been refinished, its collector value is much less than a nice one in original condition. Due to the common abuse/neglect that you mentioned, it's very surprising to me that someone was able to make it look as nice as it is without losing all stamps and rollmarks.

I was picking at you for stating you melted down "range BRASS" and pure lead.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Ahhh, you can tell I need some sleep! LOL

Mine, a 1946 second batch # 170673 a very close brother to Howe´s (just 90 serial numbers apart) , was thankfully left behind in some Brazilian Army depot and now gladly lives at my home.
As a curiosity it has no Smith&Wesson stamped on the right side of the barrel, everything else being correct and matching.
Regards, Ray

Range brass can be rendered in a proper smelter and is good for casting al sorts of artsy-craftsy stuff. Ask the Indians and the Pakistanis for whom it’s been a cottage industry for a few generations.
OK, no more thread drift. Go out and enjoy shooting that Brazilian!

Froggie

If I recall correctly, replacement barrels were made for these in Brazil. By IMBEL, I think.

Corrosive ammunition was still in use (here in the US anyways) up through WWII.

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You're shy a few manners.

Hi Jack I don´t know about IMBEL but this barrel appears to be original. As I learned from another collector these right side unmarked barrels were leftover from military contracts at the end of WWI.This one dates to 1919 and was probably assembled soon after 1945 for shippment to Brazil in 1946.We had some CBC corrosive primed ammo as well. They usually have a green coating on the bullet, and many will not fire due to faulty primers.

Regards, Ray

Another odd thing is I noticed mine has no military proof marks on it.

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Daniel
SWHF 616

As far as I have seen S&W made no effort to remove the inspector marks from the barrels, cylinders and frame/yoke areas when assembling commercial models and 1946 delivered Brazilian guns when utilizing leftover M1917 contract parts. Now of course the exterior U.S. M1917 military/model markings on the frame (if even present) were removed from commercial model and 1946 delivered guns.

It would only have U.S. military inspection stamps if assembled with "leftover" U.S. M1917 parts that were inspected/stamped prior to them ending manufacture for the WWI contract.

I have inspected numerous post WWI commercial models that had the military inspection stamps on some/all of the parts. Obviously they were assembled using leftover M1917 parts that had been inspected for WWI M1917 manufacture.

The same was done for the Brazilian M1917/1937 contract guns delivered in 1946. Ray's most excellent example shows the Eagle's head military inspector marks on the frame, cylinder, and barrel. All parts are serialized matching so the barrel is not a replacement and is original to the gun.

I need an excellent example such as Ray's from the 1946 shipment utilizing leftover/found U.S. M1917 contract parts. Did you hear that Ray!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here are the pics of Ray's Brazilian from the 1946 shipment. (Lucky dog.)

And yes, the grips are stamped matching...……………...and he even has the original box!

Dale

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I have no doubt that a serial number matching barrel is original.

Since all 1917 Army barrels are stamped "S.&W. D.A. 45" left side only, there's no SMITH & WESSON right side stamp. This includes the Post War Transitional models and the stamp didn't change until the short action version was introduced and stamped ".45 Model 1950” in 1951. However these can be found still stamped "S.&W. D.A. 45" on the right side.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Dale,

Wow, Ray's is an awesome example.

Especially with that serial #170673 is has to be a rd top frame.

Is this the box type he has for it? It's also the correct PW Transitional box:


Photo and gun credit: SRT

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Daniel,

That's a beauty!!

Did your "other" 1917 referenced above, letter as a '46 contract gun?

And was it a rd or flat top version?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

All of these pre war contract Brazilians were shipped in 1938.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Sorry Ray, I see now you have a matching barrel. Not that there is anything really wrong with IMBEL barrels.

Give me a break guys, I did not have the benefit of seeing Ray's pictures. I interpreted his post to mean "everything matched except the barrel." I see that is not the case.

In fact, where did those pictures come from? Can someone teach me the super secret handshake to get this inside information?

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You're shy a few manners.

Hondo,

This should answer your box questions. I just had to have Ray send me the pics awhile back when he posted about his Brazilian M1917/1937 contract 1946 delivered example. And yes it has the rounded style rear sight cutout as one would expect for a true U.S. contract M1917 frame.

Jim, be sure to let me know if that beautiful post-WWII example ever needs a new home.

Enjoy,
Dale

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Thank you!

And yes I would expect the rd top strap and U shaped sight notch unless it's one of the ~2500 alleged flat top strap frames shipped in '46.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Is this not the case with the Brazilians? Mine is stamped with both "S&W D.A. 45" on the left side and "Smith & Wesson" on the right side.

Judging by your pics in post #15 you have a commercial style Brazilian M1917, and I would expect that your example's barrel is not a leftover barrel from the original WWI U.S. M1917 contract run, but a newly manufactured barrel for the later commercial and Brazilian "commercial" style guns.

Later post WWII delivered Brazilian examples assembled using "found" U.S. M1917 contract parts most likely will not have the "SMITH&WESSON" marking on the right side of the barrel if built using the "found" original U.S. M1917 contract barrels...….as original U.S. M1917 revolver examples do not have the marking.

My Brazilian M1917/1937 example, delivered in 1938 was assembled using commercial model M1917 parts. (Not original U.S. contract M1917 parts from the WWI era.) It does have the "SMITH&WESSON" stamping on the right side of the barrel, same as yours...….and same as my slightly prior 1930's era true commercial model does.

As a sidenote, the correct grips for your example most likely would be the commercial checkered grips with silver medallions similar to the bottom revolver in the pics provided......which is a "commercial" Brazilian M1917/1937 example delivered in 1938/prior to WWII.

While hard to actually see in my ****** pics, the "SMITH&WESSON" marking is absent on the true U.S. contract M1917 example but present on the commercial style Brazilian m1917/1937. Maybe if you zoom in enough you can see the faint "SMITH&WESSON" marking on the Brazilian's barrel. Maybe....

I'll try to get better pics tomorrow.

HTH,
Dale

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Thank you and yes the "other" 209733 letters as a '46 shipment and yes it is a round top. No markings of any kind on the barrel but all others numbers matched.

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Daniel
SWHF 616

It is interesting that your factory letter states that your 1946 delivered example, utilizing an early true M1917 contract style frame, was delivered with commercial style checkered grips with medallions.

While one would expect that it would have the plain military style non-checkered non-medallioned style grips you can never say never with regards to S&W.

Time and time again I see that many folks assume the correct grips for their Brazilian M1917 is the plain grips such as those supplied on the U.S. M1917 contract examples. That is simply not true as I would "expect" that those assembled using commercial parts would have commercial checkered style grips...….and those assembled using "found" U.S. contract M1917 parts would have plain un-checkered military style grips.

Obviously, as proven here and with other factory letters I have seen this is not always 100% correct. I would be very interested to know the actual ratio of commercial style grips versus military style grips for the entire Brazilian M1917/1937 shipments for both pre-WWII and post-WWII deliveries...….just to see how it would compare to commercial style frame numbers versus true M1917 style frame numbers.

Dale

Thank you!

You are welcome...……….and "most likely" is the key phrase here with regards to the grips. As shown in later posts there can be instances where something that is expected is not truly the case and only a S&W factory letter will give you the most correct info with regards to the grips.

Dale

I was clearly trying to say too much with too few words!

Tenntex32 said it far better than I.

Also after the war, the Transitional model barrels are stamped like pre war com'l models "S.& W. D.A. 45" on left side and “SMITH & WESSON” right side, but no telling if they're all marked the same.

The new cartridge & model, "45 CAL. MODEL 1950" roll stamp switched to the right side of the barrel and SMITH & WESSON to the left side.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

There is a replacement barrel. You can see it has a different profile than the ones in post 42. I believe the replacements were made by IMBEL.

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You're shy a few manners.

Wasn't there some 1917 barrels stamped INA?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Dale, thanks for your post and kind words regarding my 17/37.
Jack my daughter will be flattered by your words, she did the gun pictures with her camera.The pics of the box, far inferior, I did with my cell phone and lastly
Hondo, that is my box and now thanks to you I learned its proper name - post war transitional box.
I intended to ask for a S&W letter but the information forwarded to Daniel pretty much covers the issue, not the same shippment date, but probably the same John Block for shippment to Rio, Brazil.
Thanks again to all.
I haven´t fired it yet but intend to do it soon.

Regards, Ray