I have become interested in getting a S & W 1917 .45ACP revolver.
Does not have to be pristine, but I want it to be fairly tight, have a shiny bore, and otherwise mechanically sound. Condition of blue or parkerizing is not real important, but of course if most of the finish remains, that's good.
What should I have to pay for one in that condition?
Are there certain variations or years of production that should be avoided or preferred?
Last edited by smoothshooter; 11-24-2019 at 09:43 PM.
I agree with Muley about price. Nothing I would avoid other than the 1937 Brazilian contract guns. Most of them were used hard, and many were refinished, so the actual condition is hard to determine until you have them in hand
Last time I was in a local FFL that specializes in antique, older, collectable, and nice firearms there were two. One nice and one "extra nice" Both military and one a very low serial number. The extra nice was listed at $1200 and the other around $1000. Roo m for negotiations on both.
If I didn't already have one I would have been tempted. This was about a month ago.
I agree with Muley about price. Nothing I would avoid other than the 1937 Brazilian contract guns. Most of them were used hard, and many were refinished, so the actual condition is hard to determine until you have them in hand
For the most part your right about the 1937s but they're not all beat up here's one I picked up about a year ago and it's not bad and it hasn't been refinished.
Are there certain variations or years of production that should be avoided or preferred?
No variations to be avoided in my opinion.
Early production is preferred by some for cool features like concentric rings on hammer sides; up to serial range 15000 with a few after. Concave stock 'circles' up to ~ # range 20000.
You didn't indicate if you were interested in just a military 1917 or not. Of course expect to pay more for commercial versions, and usually found in much better condition.
I agree with Muley about price. Nothing I would avoid other than the 1937 Brazilian contract guns. Most of them were used hard, and many were refinished, so the actual condition is hard to determine until you have them in hand
True. And much of the problem with beat up '37s and '46s had to do with packing them loosely into barrels for importing them back to the states.
Nice Brazilizn contract ones are out there too, but actually somewhat scarce due to the hard life they had and a nasty trip back north. Nice ones will command anywhere from $600 to $1000., depending on 'how' nice they are.
Decent USGI ones, perhaps appearance challenged, but mechanically sound may go for $600. or so. A very nice one with signs of use but no abuse will likely be around $1000., and a real beauty with hardly any signs of use will command $2000. of late. All of these observations assume no refinishing, matching number or period stocks (only ever saw one Brazilian with matching number stocks), and matching numbers on metal parts.
There is a wealth of knowledge about them on this forum, and a lot of folks that know a lot about them. Tap that knowledge base and make a good purchase. They are a lot of fun to shoot too! I am always in the market for one if the price and condition is right.
Please keep us posted.
Here is a USGI from 1918. This one likely will not see much range time....
Last edited by JH1951; 11-28-2019 at 07:43 PM.
Reason: added picture
Nice Brazilian contract ones are out there too, ... Nice ones will command anywhere from $600 to $1000., ... (only ever saw one Brazilian with matching number stocks), and matching numbers on metal parts. ...
I have one from the second group ('46) with matching stocks but I can't say for sure they are factory original. Unfortunately someone installed a Wonder Sight on it so the original top sideplate screw is gone. Otherwise it's pretty nice.
The guy who sold it to me said he got it from a wholesaler who bought a large lot of them and hand-selected this one for himself. Well, that's the story if you want to believe it!
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Last edited by Jack Flash; 11-28-2019 at 07:07 PM.
Not to slide off on a Brazilian M1917 tangent too far but my pre-WWII 1937 contract example is all matching including the grips...…….but unfortunately it has had a refinish at some point.
While it is not overly rare to find a matching grips specimen it is a bit uncommon. I have seen a handful in the several years I have been collecting M1917 variants.
I agree with Muley about price. Nothing I would avoid other than the 1937 Brazilian contract guns. Most of them were used hard, and many were refinished, so the actual condition is hard to determine until you have them in hand
I, actually, prefer sights on the Brazilians over the origianl 1917s.
Steve
My introduction to Model 1917's and N-framed .45 ACP chambered revolvers was via a Brazilian Model of 1917 (early model). I rate them as excellent shooters if that's what you want to do with one mostly due to the fact that they can be got much cheaper than a Model of 1917 U.S. I got mine for half what a U.S. model would have been worth, it had already been nicely re-blued. I've had some work done to it and enjoy it as a plinker of sorts and shoot it mostly at targets at the gun club. For a short time it was with me all the time and has been replaced for that purpose by a Model 24-3. It was responsible for my renewed interest in shooting large caliber revolvers chambered in .45acp/ar, which somehow got passed me over the years..
I can shoot it freely and hand it over to someone else to have them enjoy shooting it without being concerned they might cause me grief, whereas my Model of 1917 I received from a friend after he passed is far to nice a piece to just bang away with, let alone hand over to someone to give it a try.
For an everyday shooter I am in the Brazilian camp . Mine is tight and all matching and cost me $350.00 otd several years ago when they were easier to find . Like to have a US military and a Commercial both but for what I do with them they cost too much as long as I can buy a contract gun cheaper .
Since the OP doesn't care if it has been refinished, Parked, etc. as long as it is mechanically excellent, we can assume he wants a shooter.
Therefore, a Brazilian could fill the bill just fine.
Of course, you have to look them over carefully so you don't get one that has been beaten, neglected, and worked on by a Brazilian Bubba.
A lot of people seem to look at Brazilians as the red-headed step child of the M1917 family. Maybe they don't have the same appeal to collectors as a WWI-era or scarcer Commercial Variation, but if you find a good shooter, it will take a back seat to neither.
If y'all haven't noticed, the Brazilizn contract models in decent condition are commanding a substantial price these days..... somewhat more than what they were several years ago, anyway.
I,originally, bought mine on this forum. When it arrived, it had been dunked into a factory chrome tank and first inch or so of the bore looked rough, wouldn't even eject fired cases. Dissapointed, I sent it down to Florida(Fords) for a chemical stipping then to
Virginia for reassembly and barrel shortening. After communication with gunsmith in Virginia(Dave Clements) he told me he thought he could polish out the bore.So, I decided to fore go the barrel shortening. Dave did a great job on this firearm and now shoots like a dream!
Steve
I,originally, bought mine on this forum. When it arrived, it had been dunker into a factory chrome tank and first inch or so of the bore looked rough, wouldn't even eject fired cases. Dissapointed, I sent it down to Florida(Fords) for a chemical stipping then to
Virginia for reassembly and barrel shortening. After communication with gunsmith in Virginia(Dave Clements) he told me he thought he could polish out the bore.So, I decided to fore go the barrel shortening. Dave did a great job on this firearm and now shoots like a dream!
Steve
Looks very nice. Any more pictures you can share?
What finish did you end up with? It does look good to me, and being a good shooter, you should be happy with it.
Looks very nice. Any more pictures you can share?
What finish did you end up with? It does look good to me, and being a good shooter, you should be happy with it.
David Clements does excellent work. He shortened a 6 1/2" 1950 .44 Special barrel to 5", made a new front sight and re-blued the revolver, a converted M27-2. He also fitted a 5" nickel barrel to a 8 3/8" M27.
Looks very nice. Any more pictures you can share?
What finish did you end up with? It does look good to me, and being a good shooter, you should be happy with it.
It had been previously blasted so Clements blued as it was but, pleases me. Yes I am please with every bit of Clements work on this and others I've sent him although he no longer works on S&Ws. He remodeled a S&W model 63 years back, changed the front sight amungst other modifications. Hondo44, According to the serial number I believe it to be from 1937?
Steve
From everything I've seen regarding a Brazilian in close to as issue condition they almost look as nice as Commercials, they have a closer to commercial quality finish than the Model of 1917 in "war" finish. Granted that is probably what makes a very nice Brazilian a rare bird, very few are in fine condition due to their use. Unlike many 1917's that never saw service and sat in a rack in an armory or spent their time hanging from an officer's belt in his office on a coat rack.
It had been previously blasted so Clements blued as it was but, pleases me. Yes I am please with every bit of Clements work on this and others I've sent him although he no longer works on S&Ws. He remodeled a S&W model 63 years back, changed the front sight amungst other modifications. Hondo44, According to the serial number I believe it to be from 1937?
Steve
Serial #s can be tricky, but if the butt # reads right side up with muzzle pointing to the right, it's a pre war gun, hence a '37.
if you like the sights better it's no doubt a '37 1917 with flat topstrap and larger sq notch. The '46 guns were mostly old U notch, rd topstrap frames.
The question of price / value seems to be a moving target. Earlier in this thread I suggested that "a real beauty with hardly any signs of use (USGI) will command $2000." Well, one just closed on GB for $3025. It is a nice somewhat early production, but not flawless. I guess a couple people really wanted it. Auction results can be wild sometimes if the stars align just right.
I bought each of these 1917’s off GB for $500. The nickel one was bought a couple years ago and turned out to be a factory re-work to a nickel 45 Colt that still wore its updated stocks so that was a treat. The blued one came in a little over a year ago and got sent off for some custom work but would have shot fine if I had the will-power to leave it alone.
Late coming to this thread...saw a Brazilian model recently. Dealer had it on consignment for $1100. Said on the tag, "refinished" the gun was in very nice shape and the action locked up tight on all chambers. I looked at the gun. And did not believe it to be refinished. All lettering was crisp and the Brazilian crest seemed sharp, oins were proud and rounded. I thought the price a little high for a reblue, but maybe worth negotiating on the chance it was original .I wish I had thought to take pictures.
Actually, I should of added I love the looks of the Indiana Jones 1917 or Brazialians .45ACPs what ever you have? Why I considered shortening the barrel on mine but, when Dave told me he thought he could polish out the frosted on mine, no way I'd change a thing. I've never had a regret.
Steve
The concave stocks were limited to the first (?) 10,000 guns, then the stocks were the full convex round top stocks. Some of the 1947 issue to Brazil did also have the concave top stocks. The 47 issue were made up form parts left over in the factory and some have s/n lower than earlier issued 1917's.
The concave stocks were limited to the first (?) 10,000 guns, then the stocks were the full convex round top stocks. Some of the 1947 issue to Brazil did also have the concave top stocks. The 47 issue were made up form parts left over in the factory and some have s/n lower than earlier issued 1917's.
So if this one I looked at has medallion stocks, they might be replacements?
Here's a picture if my Brazilian 1917 with SN 191745. The serial number struck a chord with me. It is in reasonably good shape outside and the inside is about new. It is a great shooter, and does range duty so that the others can stay home and stay pretty. In my opinion the 1917 provides one of the best larger caliber revolver shooting experiences available.
M1917s from the Second Group were reputedly made up of spare parts S&W found during a major clean up after WWII. I am sure that if they didn't have enough "correct" stocks, they used whatever else they found laying around or could manufacture quickly.
Personally, I am amazed that enough parts to make up 12,000 revolvers would just sit around neglected for all those years (including the years 1941 - 1945 when there was a huge demand for weapons of all types!) but that's apparently how it happened.
Wasn't the whole idea of the moon clip equipped S&W and Colt model of 1917 to deal with a short fall of production numbers for the 1911? Once they got any number of manufacturers on line pumping out 1911's I believe the need for a "fall back" of the 1917 was deemed unnecessary. They just weren't needed for WWII because everyone from Singer to GM were pumping them out in the 100's of thousands. Now somebody like Brazil, sure S&W was willing to give them a great deal on some stuff hanging around and or maybe left over and or even (gasp) unwanted.
Wasn't the whole idea of the moon clip equipped S&W and Colt model of 1917 to deal with a short fall of production numbers for the 1911? Once they got any number of manufacturers on line pumping out 1911's I believe the need for a "fall back" of the 1917 was deemed unnecessary. They just weren't needed for WWII because everyone from Singer to GM were pumping them out in the 100's of thousands. Now somebody like Brazil, sure S&W was willing to give them a great deal on some stuff hanging around and or maybe left over and or even (gasp) unwanted.
Yes, the 1917s, Colt and S&W both, were substitute standard handguns for WW I. They were brought out of storage and issued during WW II. It took a while for M1911A1 production to get up to speed. Don't forget, a lot of Victory model S&Ws were issued too.
The Brazilian contract of 1937 was a lifesaver for S&W, as it came during the Depression. All of these were new made. The 1946 Brazilian contact helped the S&W cashflow by getting rid of old parts.
Wasn't the whole idea of the moon clip equipped S&W and Colt model of 1917 to deal with a short fall of production numbers for the 1911? Once they got any number of manufacturers on line pumping out 1911's I believe the need for a "fall back" of the 1917 was deemed unnecessary. They just weren't needed for WWII because everyone from Singer to GM were pumping them out in the 100's of thousands. Now somebody like Brazil, sure S&W was willing to give them a great deal on some stuff hanging around and or maybe left over and or even (gasp) unwanted.
Singer didn’t pump them out by the thousands. Or even the thousand.
The OP mentioned the desire for a shiny bore. That’s liable to be a tall order considering the corrosive ammo they would have been used with.
Keep.in mind that before "just in time" inventory, manufacturers would build economic lot quantities to minimize set up costs. So it would not be unusual to have quantities of parts left over after production runs. Especially in a situation like the end of WWII where everyone was manufacturing at full capacity until the day the war ended. Lots of small manufacturers went out of business when supply dried up and they were sitting on inventory they made to supply anticipated military needs
[QUOTE=raljr1;140668503]
IMO, reliance on military contacts is one of the major reasons Colt’s had a foot in the grave for decades.
It’s not just the military, either. Lots of small manufacturers of all sorts of goods have met their end by getting into bed with retail giants. It’s one of the oldest dirty tricks in the corporate book.
Hi Standard was driven to bankruptcy by a contract with Sears.
HS took on debt expanding to meet the volume Sears wanted. Once Sears had them stretched thin, they decided it was time to renegotiate the contract. With no other channels for that volume of guns, and probably lacking resources for a protracted legal battle with a corporate giant, HS had no choice but to build them at a loss for Sears while looking for other outlets.
Before reading that in American Rifleman many years ago, I’d harbored fond childhood memories of ordering from the Sears catalog and going with my parents to pick it up at the catalog store.
Pretty soon my fond memory of Sears will be them going belly up.
FYI on pricing in this area, western SD., a gun store in the next town over has a 1937 w/ 12 moon clips, tool, and some ammo (their description) for $1075, down from $1200. Looks similar in condition to the one Threedflyer posted but has checkered grips.
I have looked at it through the glass on the top of the case, but have no further interest as it is way out of my price range, you know retired and cheap!
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Jim
Last edited by walkinghorse; 02-10-2020 at 08:46 PM.
I can recommend the Smith & Wesson Model 1917 as grand for shooting purposes. It's a good, accurate, and potent revolver.
For some years I shot an old '17 Smith & Wesson I'd purchased for $125 at a gun show. It had something spilled over the left side and was blotchy and ugly. Shot great and had a fine bore. Was a boon companion on hikes on our old family place.
Then I got the notion to upgrade it to a Model 1917 in better condition. Thing is, I lost one of my favorite hiking side arms.
So, I had to move my affections to a Colt Model 1917 that is a bit shabby. It proved to also be a fun hiking and shooting companion. The Smith & Wesson Model 1917 has been restricted to range duty ever since.
Was always going to upgrade the Colt Model 1917, but have yet to get around to it.
Last edited by bmcgilvray; 02-11-2020 at 12:57 PM.
Model 1917
Linear Mode
