My ugly duckling.

rubiranch · #1 12-22-2019, 06:22 PM

I believe it started its life as a 1955 M-19 and now lives as a .38 special. It must be a transgunder.

And ended up being the ugliest gun I own.

Hondo44 · #2 12-22-2019, 07:09 PM

Ugly or not is in the eye of the beholder. It's modified for a specific use and works well for that, which overrides the "cosmetic looks" of it for its owner.

Does the cyl serial # on the rear face match the butt # of the gun? If so and it's a 38 Spl cyl, then the gun is orignally a K38.

I believe it is because the front face of the frame on a M19 is lower (longer) than the 38, (due to the M19 barrel shroud), but the face of your gun doesn't look long enough.

dmthomp32 · #3 12-22-2019, 07:48 PM

Out of all the mods I can see the trigger is the most "interesting". I've seen plenty of these target revolvers with the bull barrels and target sights added but I don't recall the trigger guards looking like that?

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rubiranch · #4 12-22-2019, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Ugly or not is in the eye of the beholder. It's modified for a specific use and works well for that, which overrides the "cosmetic looks" of it for its owner.

Does the cyl serial # on the rear face match the butt # of the gun? If so and it's a 38 Spl cyl, then the gun is orignally a K38.

I believe it is because the front face of the frame on a M19 is lower (longer) than the 38, (due to the M19 barrel shroud), but the face of your gun doesn't look long enough.

There are no numbers on the cylinder, only these on the cylinder crane and I'm sure that they have no meaning.

It could have very well started out as a K38 as it still is.

rubiranch · #5 12-22-2019, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmthomp32

Out of all the mods I can see the trigger is the most "interesting". I've seen plenty of these target revolvers with the bull barrels and target sights added but I don't recall the trigger guards looking like that?

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That trigger guard stumped another friend of mine too.

H Richard · #6 12-22-2019, 08:00 PM

Not ugly to me, I only see accuracy. That gun was built around a 148 gr. HBWC over about 3.2-3.5 gr Bullseye. I bet the trigger is wonderful. The square front trigger guard was a trademark of Richard Heinie on his custom 1911's.

tenntex32 · #7 12-22-2019, 08:11 PM

What about the off-center bored barrel...…..was there a reason for this?

Dale

dmthomp32 · #8 12-22-2019, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenntex32

What about the off-center bored barrel...…..was there a reason for this?

Dale

I assumed that was to increase mass below the bore to reduce muzzle rise?

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dmthomp32 · #9 12-22-2019, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H Richard

Not ugly to me, I only see accuracy. That gun was built around a 148 gr. HBWC over about 3.2-3.5 gr Bullseye. I bet the trigger is wonderful. The square front trigger guard was a trademark of Richard Heinie on his custom 1911's.

Thanks for that information was it just his signature thing or is their function behind it as well? Like increasing grip hand support or something?

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tenntex32 · #10 12-22-2019, 08:43 PM

dmthomp32,

I'm no rocket surgeon but it probably wouldn't be a good practice to have your support hand/fingers as far forward as the cylinder gap while shooting.

I doubt a .38special target load would buck very much in a revolver this heavy for you to gain too terribly much by doing so. Maybe they did it anyway?

Dale

lamarw · #11 12-22-2019, 08:57 PM

I also have a unique custom target pistol. This one is a Police Pistol Combat (PPC) revolver based on a Model 10-7 frame. It was built by master gunsmith Ken Eversull. It features a slab sided barrel and a Bill Davis custom sight rib manufactured by Aristocrat. The rib has rear windage adjustments and front sliding elevation adjustments preset for 7, 15, 25 & 50 yards. The hammer has been bobbed. It also has a trigger stop. The weight is approximately 3 lbs 10 ozs.

I consider it rather handsome and the trigger pull is absolutely amazing.

YeshuaIsa53 · #12 12-22-2019, 09:05 PM

I love this place. I take it the bull barrel was added to so many of these to keep point of aim as close as possible when firing multiple rounds. Of course, it wouldn't hurt to keep the barrel cool for a longer period of time.
These guns were most likely shot a lot. Hard to improve their accuracy, but those sights may make it easier for finding using quick follow-up shots. Of course, a great trigger job never hurts...whether needed or not.

I like your ugly duckling. I like the weight heavier under the bore. I like the presentation grips. Filler up with 148 grains and shoot it often. I'll leave the reasons to the pros.

rubiranch · #13 12-22-2019, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H Richard

Not ugly to me, I only see accuracy. That gun was built around a 148 gr. HBWC over about 3.2-3.5 gr Bullseye. I bet the trigger is wonderful. The square front trigger guard was a trademark of Richard Heinie on his custom 1911's.

Thank you. I posted pictures two years ago and no one had any idea who the gunsmith was.

rubiranch · #14 12-22-2019, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamarw

I also have a unique custom target pistol. This one is a Police Pistol Combat (PPC) revolver based on a Model 10-7 frame. It was built by master gunsmith Ken Eversull. It features a slab sided barrel and a Bill Davis custom sight rib manufactured by Aristocrat. The rib has rear windage adjustments and front sliding elevation adjustments preset for 7, 15, 25 & 50 yards. The hammer has been bobbed. It also has a trigger stop. The weight is approximately 3 lbs 10 ozs.

I consider it rather handsome and the trigger pull is absolutely amazing.

Nice. I've never shot this one. Maybe one day I'll give it a try.

rubiranch · #15 12-22-2019, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Be still

I like your ugly duckling. I like the weight heavier under the bore. I like the presentation grips. Filler up with 148 grains and shoot it often. I'll leave the reasons to the pros.

I think I might just shoot it one of these days.

newellj · #16 12-22-2019, 09:44 PM

10-5 PPC build with aristocrat rib, WC Cabell, trigger / action work cylinder chamfering and a trigger stop.
Most accurate S&W I own.

Vettepartz · #17 12-22-2019, 10:06 PM

Looks like a Model F19 to me. And it is ugly, in comparison.

rubiranch · #18 12-22-2019, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newellj

10-5 PPC build with aristocrat rib, WC Cabell, trigger / action work cylinder chamfering and a trigger stop.
Most accurate S&W I own.

Mines filthy dirty.

dmthomp32 · #19 12-22-2019, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenntex32

dmthomp32,

I'm no rocket surgeon but it probably wouldn't be a good practice to have your support hand/fingers as far forward as the cylinder gap while shooting.

I doubt a .38special target load would buck very much in a revolver this heavy for you to gain too terribly much by doing so. Maybe they did it anyway?

Dale

Well said. I forgot about the cylinder gap situation, that would problematic for sure.

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bigggbbruce · #20 12-22-2019, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vettepartz

Looks like a Model F19 to me. And it is ugly, in comparison.

What is a F19..

Means that my M17 by example is actually a C14 'cause that's what is stamped on the crane of that gun..

Sevens · #21 12-22-2019, 10:58 PM

On the cylinder gap and support hand near or forward of it:

Yes and no actually! For sure no, for basically anyone shooting revolvers, generally, across the board, having a hand anywhere in the blast zone.

However, there were some extremely successful competition shooters that used their support hand well forward and they were holding revolvers in the most completely ridiculous ways. There was one guy in particular that won a title, it may have been a national title, and his photos were splattered all over gun magazines, he was holding the barrel right behind the front sight.

Bob L · #22 12-22-2019, 11:22 PM

I have to admit that the first revolver I ever shot, shooting single action and I laid my thumb right along the cylinder barrel gap. The one shot was a quick lesson in where to place your thumb. Happy Holidays!

Golddollar · #23 12-23-2019, 12:30 AM

It looks good to me. I used to own its big brother made on a Highway Patrolman. I had to sell it when I lost my job.

Nightowl · #24 12-23-2019, 12:37 AM

If I read that serial number correctly as a K250xxx, then it preceeds the Combat Magnum by 10,000 serial numbers.

Muley Gil · #25 12-23-2019, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vettepartz

Looks like a Model F19 to me. And it is ugly, in comparison.

The F19 is either an assembly or inspector's mark.

StrawHat · #26 12-23-2019, 08:30 AM

I competed in PPC and shot against similar revolvers. 2.7 grains of Bullseye under a 148 grain HBWC or DEWC will give 10 ring accuracy all day long. In some revolvers, X ring. But anything outside the 10 ring is on you!

Kevin

stansdds · #27 12-23-2019, 09:51 AM

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What you have is a custom built PPC race gun. I have not seen one in quite a while, but they were popular items well into the 1980's.

Valmet · #28 12-23-2019, 09:55 AM

And I’ll bet it’s an absolute tack-driver OP...

RKmesa · #29 12-23-2019, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightowl

If I read that serial number correctly as a K250xxx, then it preceeds the Combat Magnum by 10,000 serial numbers.

I agree... and the SN appears to have been stamped after that gun left the factory. I have never seen that font used for a SN Stamp on any S&W. Is the SN the same on the butt of the grip frame?

With all that said, it looks like a blast to shoot!!! Nothing I enjoy more than shooting 38's out of a heavy gun - very pleasant and very accurate. That is one that needs a little range time. It allows you to keep your pristine N-Frame .357's pristine.

Thanks for sharing,

rubiranch · #30 12-23-2019, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valmet

And I’ll bet it’s an absolute tack-driver OP...

Probably not if I'm the one pulling the trigger. LOL

rubiranch · #31 12-23-2019, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKmesa

I agree... and the SN appears to have been stamped after that gun left the factory. I have never seen that font in a SN Stamp on any S&W. Is the SN the same on the butt of the grip frame?

With all that said, it looks like a blast to shoot!!! Nothing I enjoy more than shooting 38's out of a heavy gun - very pleasant and very accurate. That is one that needs a little range time. It allows you to keep your pristine N-Frame .357's pristine.

Thanks for sharing,

Yes it is but after looking closer it appears to be K256020.
Could have the frame been purchased by itself and built from scratch??

The SN on the butt looks a little off to me for some reason. Maybe its the K.

Narragansett · #32 12-23-2019, 11:19 AM

Is it just my poor eyes seeing an optical dillusion, or is the bore not centered in the barrel blank?

These guns were made to be tack drivers with HBWC 148gr. Standard mid range match ammunition. Double action accuracy is unbelievable, because the bbl flip is almost nonexistent.

This is mine. It started life as a M15-3. I had the work done by TNT arms in North Conway NH in about 1977. The bbl is 1.25 inches, Douglas premium air gauge, full length Bomar rib, polished trigger, cylinder charge holes opened. The cylinder was spun with compressed air and jeweler's rouge and spins like it is on ball bearings, no resistance to turning.

The action is unbelievably slick. Also, the mainspring was converted to coil type.

Cost to have the work done.......100.00

i got the idea from a front cover photo on Gun World Magazine. I also could have had a slab sided BBL

armorer951 · #33 12-23-2019, 11:30 AM

I've still got my old "ugly duckling" I built on a model 10-5 frame back in the 1970's. Bo-Mar rib, Aristocrat barrel weight. Kind of an unusual one inch diameter 10 land/groove barrel by Apex. (Apex, I think)

Thousands of wadcutter rounds through this one, mostly from Star Reloading Co. in Indianapolis. Served it's purpose well. Finally changed out the modified (DA only) hammer and the trigger several years ago. Accuracy from these revolvers is truly amazing.

rubiranch · #34 12-23-2019, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narragansett

Is it just my poor eyes seeing an optical dillusion, or is the bore not centered in the barrel blank?

These guns were made to be tack drivers with HBWC 148gr. Standard mid range match ammunition. Double action accuracy is unbelievable, because the bbl flip is almost nonexistent.

This is mine. It started life as a M15-3. I had the work done by TNT arms in North Conway NH in about 1977. The bbl is 1.25 inches, Douglas premium air gauge, full length Bomar rib, polished trigger, cylinder charge holes opened. The cylinder was spun with compressed air and jeweler's rouge and spins like it is on ball bearings, no resistance to turning.

The action is unbelievably slick. Also, the mainspring was converted to coil type.

Cost to have the work done.......100.00

i got the idea from a front cover photo on Gun World Magazine. I also could have had a slab sided BBL

Twins.

Yep, the bore isn't centered. I know nothing about this gun other that what I have been told here in this thread.

Narragansett · #35 12-23-2019, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armorer951

I've still got my old "ugly duckling" I built on a model 10 frame back in the 1970's. Served it's purpose well. Finally changed out the modified (DA only) hammer and the trigger several years ago. Accuracy from these revolvers is truly amazing.

Interesting carter. First time I have seen weight added to the bottom of the bbl, as opposed to a heavy rebarrel. I like it

rubiranch · #36 12-23-2019, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armorer951

Accuracy from these revolvers is truly amazing.

I'm sure way more accurate than me.

OLDSTER · #37 12-23-2019, 12:42 PM

Nice old classic dedicated bullseye revolver.

Geronimo Jim · #38 12-23-2019, 01:07 PM

I have a full house gun built by Ron Powers. Put about a billion rounds
down range with it in the 1970's. Like every else said, accuracy was
amazing. Still resting in the safe. Can't seem to part with it. Lots of
good memories.

JSR III · #39 12-23-2019, 05:09 PM

FWIW, Crane=Colt
Yoke=S&W

lamarw · #40 12-23-2019, 05:58 PM

Here are a few additional pictures of the one I posted about in post # 11.

NoDakCrosshair · #41 04-16-2020, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newellj

10-5 PPC build with aristocrat rib, WC Cabell, trigger / action work cylinder chamfering and a trigger stop.
Most accurate S&W I own.

Hey there. I was directed to this thread because of your post.

I've just put my name on a Ruger Police Service-Six that was done up pretty much exactly like yours. "W. C. Cabell" is stamped on the barrel in the same location.

I know mine isn't a S&W, but I figure it is relevant to post here with the hope of possibly finding out who "W. C. Cabell" is. Always fun to find out little pieces of a guns history.

https://i.imgur.com/ntWHOpp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/d5F2SVO.jpg

Moo Moo · #42 04-17-2020, 04:06 AM

Here is my Service Match Gun which is the Australian equivalent of your PPC. I use 2.8gr of Bullseye with a 115 SWC.

StrawHat · #43 04-17-2020, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moo Moo

Here is my Service Match Gun with is the Australian equivalent of your PPC. I use 2.8gr of Bullseye with a 115 SWC.

How does that little SWC do at longer ranges?

Kevin

bill-in-texas · #44 04-17-2020, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

FWIW, Crane=Colt
Yoke=S&W

Wow... good eye, sir!
The voice of experience.

Kenny,
Great thread... but, now I've another area of interest rekindled!
And, nowhere to go during this pandemic. Ugh!
(This too, shall pass. Right?!)

I love seeing these revolvers, even if I was just 13 in 1977. I bet it was a fascinating time in competition shooting.

As a side note, a couple of years back I came across a 6" K38 (maybe?) with the adjustable factory target sights... I'm not even sure what to refer to them as.
I typically get the camera phone out and take pictures of anything I come across that piques my interest; I'll need to go through old pics to find it.

Thanks again, Kenny et al.
Very interesting thread!

Bob L · #45 04-17-2020, 10:20 AM

I really love the PPC revolvers and how they look. I had a chance to but one back in the 80's but I was doing a lot of IHMSA shooting and the 38 Special would not cut it. Thanks for sharing

Pig Hunter · #46 04-17-2020, 11:49 AM

The only PPC match I shot required the use of wood stocks. Did this rule later change or was it just that particular shoot? I was 6th place at 50yds. Don't even want to think about the rest.

JJEH · #47 04-17-2020, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubiranch

And ended up being the ugliest gun I own.

Form follows function, if it works I wouldn't worry too much about looks

Kinman · #48 04-17-2020, 05:39 PM

Out of complete ignorance or any experience shooting such a highly tuned revolver. Will they compete with say a basic box stock Model 52-2 or Model 41? I owned a Colt Officers Match with King ramp, it was the most accurate revolver I ever owned and shot. I can shoot better with my 52-2, even with advanced age. I have owned a K-38 and K-22 and neither of them come close to what I could do with a Model 41 or 52-2. Seeking enlightenment...

Moo Moo · #49 04-17-2020, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawHat

How does that little SWC do at longer ranges?

Kevin

The SWC goes fine at the 50 yard line.

S.B. · #50 04-20-2020, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H Richard

Not ugly to me, I only see accuracy. That gun was built around a 148 gr. HBWC over about 3.2-3.5 gr Bullseye. I bet the trigger is wonderful. The square front trigger guard was a trademark of Richard Heinie on his custom 1911's.

Yes Richard had a friend who was a state trooper from Illiniois, that built PPC guns at the same time Hienie was bulding 1911s. Maybe his buddy's? Funny how my memory fades in old age. As a matter of fact I had God put his squared trigger guard on the full house gun he built for me.
Steve