Help with target 38 with possible hump back hammer
Saw this one today only able to grab a quick picture serial in the 677000 range Made In USA has lerk and what looks like a hump back hammer some finish wear. I can get it for $625.
Saw this one today only able to grab a quick picture serial in the 677000 range Made In USA has lerk and what looks like a hump back hammer some finish wear. I can get it for $625.
Until just a month ago, this would have been my birth year grail gun! However, I just acquired its virtual twin (maybe in somewhat better condition), serial 6771XX. It also has the target sights, magna stocks and humpbacked hammer. Mine was, according to Roy, shipped in June of 1939. Chances are this one is also a 1939 gun. $625 does not sound too bad for how it's configured if it meets mechanical criteria and the bluing is not too far gone. Keep in mind it's 80 years old and has the old-style hammer block.
John
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Last edited by PALADIN85020; 01-04-2020 at 04:32 PM.
Saw this one today only able to grab a quick picture serial in the 677000 range Made In USA has lerk and what looks like a hump back hammer some finish wear. I can get it for $625.
It’s a Model 1905 or more commonly known as an M&P 38. I bought one a few weeks back at a gun show (although without the adjustable sights) for a little over $400. My s/n is in the 694xxx range and was determined to be just barely pre-war sometime in mid ‘41 I think. Yours will be a little earlier than that, maybe late winter to early spring ‘41, I would think. Is it .38 S&W or .38 Special? I like the adjustable sights, but not sure they would be factory. Check to see if all the serial numbers match...cylinder, barrel, frame, and stocks. Mine is very accurate with HBWC’s loaded to around 825 FPS.
It’s a vintage I’m not real knowledgeable about, but I hope that the info I’ve provided is accurate...I’m continually learning.
Edit: John beat me to it. His date info is probably more accurate than mine.
First of all the term LERK has always caused much more confusion than value. It has a barrel shaped knob at the end of the ejector rod, which is not even large, it is small. The first knob was a mushroom shaped knob, the second is a barrel shaped knob, and the third is simply a knurled extension at the end of the ejector rod.
Second the term Model 1905 was discontinued by the mid-teens, and your revolver is simply a 38 Hand Ejector (Military & Police), 4th Change, shipped artound 1939.
Third, it does not have an old style hammer block, but rather a robust improved style block, installed on M&P revolvers from 1915 until after WWII.
Opinions will vary on the value, but I would not pay much over $500 for a worn finish gun, with somewhat worn stocks. Check the inside of the right stock for a serial number, and they did offer both Magna stocks and humpback hammers by the late 1930s, but not a value adder for me.
I like that gun as a shooter grade gun. It is possible the original owner drilled the hole and the gun was probably used much in target shooting. The pre war magna grips although warn and not original to that gun are the rare part of the gun. Pre war magnas for K frames were a request at additional charge option only and only made for a few years and to me are worth $150 on thier own in the present condition. Between the grips and HBH the gun would be an interesting shooter worth $400 range to me. Just my opinion on it.
it does not have an old style hammer block, but rather a robust improved style block, installed on M&P revolvers from 1915 until after WWII.
Slight correction, Gary. The sliding hammer block safety was installed beginning in December, 1944, while the war was still waging. The earliest M&Ps with the new safety device (Victory Models, of course) left the factory in January, 1945. VJ Day didn't occur until August.
I have one that shipped 6-40 with target sights and the HBH. This must have been a popular configuration for a target revolver back in the day. Mine is super accurate and one of the smoothest actions that I have ever had the pleasure to shoot. And I'm pretty sure it's the one Rich laments selling.
Last edited by series guy; 01-04-2020 at 08:54 PM.
As earlier said, one of the more interesting features is the grips. They appear to be original to the gun. Does the SN stamped on the rear of the right grip panel match? If so, that could add some value to the package. That would have almost certainly have been one of the very last .38 Target Model M&Ps made prior to WWII. If the grips are original (albeit showing a little damage) and having the HBH (even with a hole), I would say that the asking price is not ridiculous. But I would try to shave the price a bit.
As I said earlier with the wear on the bluing, and the hole drilled in the hammer, and the fact he was very firm at $625 I decided it wasn't for me. He was quite offended at my $600 offer which I felt was a more than fair offer. I understand the hole was to lighten the hammer thereby increasing hammer speed.
If he was offended at a $600 offer then you made a wise decision to pass on it. It was a very fair offer. I find that many gun dealers,shops,sellers,etc. think just because a gun made by S&W is old then it is "far to valuable" to sell at any lower price than they set. Sometimes that set price is 2 or 3 times the actual value.
Gary
Thanks for the ejector knob clairification you are correct the lerk term can be confusing it was to me the first time I saw it used. I will from this point on use your description.
The people who first popularized the term LERK -- that's me raising my hand because I was one of them -- never intended it to apply to the entire range of S&W hand ejector models. It was intended as a quick way to make a relevant distinction among early postwar K-frame revolvers, in particular the Masterpiece series. The thought was that specimens with the knobbed ejector rods, being few in number, would perhaps get a value kick from that feature if called out in an auction narrative or availability list. I guess one could talk about the postwar non-target .38 M&Ps the same way. But it never seemed necessary since there were so many of them compared to the target models.
I no longer use the term (except, as here, to explain why it came to exist) because of the confusion it has generated.
Just to focus on the postwar Masterpiece revolvers for a moment, all of which have knobless ejector rods except:
K-22: About 5000 units, all probably produced before mid-1947, have the prewar/wartime knobbed ejector rod.
K-38: Probably no more than 300 were produced with the knobbed ejector rod, and maybe only half that many. Almost all will have K plus four-digit serial numbers. Only seven specimens are known to collectors.
K-32: Because distribution of this model began two years after the K-22 and nearly one year after the K-38, it was long assumed that none would have knobbed ejector rods. But two have turned up in recent years.
Those small numbers should tell everyone why the knobbed Masterpieces could be considered an attention-grabbing variety for collectors.
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David Wilson
Last edited by DCWilson; 01-08-2020 at 12:08 PM.
Reason: Light editing and reorg.
There's a hole drilled in the hammer? Can you detail this a bit? I can't imagine any reason or purpose for a hole in the hammer. Well, maybe to lighten the hammer some for target shooting.
There's a hole drilled in the hammer? Can you detail this a bit? I can't imagine any reason or purpose for a hole in the hammer. Well, maybe to lighten the hammer some for target shooting.
It was about 3/16 diameter positioned at the narrow portion of the hammer when the hammer is at rest you can just see the very top of the hole. It was at a gun show with the usual zip tie right across the hammer covering the hole in hammer. I did not have enough cash to buy the gun so we agreed to meet later it was only then when I asked to cut the zip tie off that i saw the hole. I am certain the hole was done to speed up hammer drop. There was quite a bit of wear to the finish on the cylinder leading me to think this was a competition gun. I just did not think it was worth the $625 he was firm at.
There is a factory hole in the hammer for the hammer nose rivet that is half concealed when the hammer is at rest. Mine has a lot of bluing loss also. You can't see it when you're looking down the sights and the accuracy and action more than make up for any beauty marks. Leave guns of beauty to men with no imagination.
Last edited by series guy; 01-05-2020 at 08:14 PM.
There is a factory hole in the hammer for the hammer nose rivet that is half concealed when the hammer is at rest. Mine has a lot of bluing loss also. You can't see it when you're looking down the sights and the accuracy and action more than make up for any beauty marks. Leave guns of beauty to men with no imagination.
I think some clarification is necessary. I am not referring to the hammer nose rivet this picture shows the edge of the hole located under the zip tie it has been drilled Not a factory hole
I see what you mean about the zip tie hiding that.
If it hadn't been for that I would have brought it home bluing wear doesn't bother me, as long as it is consistent with use, and not abuse. If you look through my post I own many guns with varying degrees of finish wear from 98% down to zero finish and worse one of my favorites.
There has been two other MP Target threads that had HB Hammers with one or more holes drilled in them. I have been looking for them for over an hour with no luck.
One of them even came up for sale on the forum a while back.
I can only guess but at least by appearances it looks like the HBH might be heavier than a standard hammer?
Rich I have seen those post too I could not find them either. I wish I had taken better pictures, but given the sellers attitude at my $600 offer I wasn't about to ask him. It is the first time in my gun buying experience a seller getting visibly angry with an offer. I have turned down guns before, and had people turn down guns I was selling, and never has been a big deal until now.
Help with target 38 with possible hump back hammer
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