Been away too long, lost my touch. I saw a SW .44 special, prewar, got sorta excited, grabbed it up paid 600.
Immediately thereafter I slowly realized it was non factory nickel, not particularly well done; the top strap is flame-cut a LOT, lock up is sloppy, it’s been shot a bunch, but still looks decent. I decided to move it because of its faults. At a show I traded it for a LNIB Sig 1911. *After* this unusual move I then looked a little further into the 44. It was a .44 HE 2nd model with a 4-1/2” barrel.
A note in a book suggested that the barrel length may have been a reason to keep it, based on rarity. I don’t know. Of course it would need to have a letter showing the odd barrel.
Just curious what you guys will think of the pics



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Do you recall if the front sight attachment appeared original, and did the patent dates on the top of the barrel look complete? These would suggest an original barrel, but as you noted a letter of authenticity would have been definitive.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

If you mean the area above the barrel/cylinder gap, that is called a "fouling cup" and was machined there by the factory. Did you measure the barrel from the front of the cylinder to the end of the barrel? That looks like a 5" barrel to me.

I think you did OK buying it. I would have kept it.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

The front sight looked perfectly original; I don’t recall the patent markings, I’m looking to see if I have other pics.
The barrel was measured properly from cylinder face to muzzle. The muzzle crown looked original. 4-1/2”


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Couple of other pics. Is this the “fowling cup”?
Also
I don’t have any barrel-top pics. This is as close as I got and if anything, it looks like nothing there.



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I should add, here, that I BELIEVE that it’s a .44 HE 2nd model.... but I may have that wrong as well,

One more



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Looks like the hammer and trigger got nickeled so finish is not likely to be original.

You can see it used to have a butt swivel. The pin is still there; I wonder if that is what holds the plug in. The serial number puts it in the production range of the M1917 (manufacture date of about February, 1918). Makes me wonder if the factory recycled the frame?

I wouldn't lose sleep over trading it away. Obviously you didn't like it a whole lot. A SIG 1911 has to be worth about what you had in the S&W at least. A rare barrel is one thing but the non original finish, looseness, etc., would diminish collector interest severely.

Edited to add:
Yes, that is the fouling cup, done by the factory. Another thing that makes me think it's a recycled M1917 frame. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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You're shy a few manners.

Yes, that is a 2nd Model .44 Special, built on a 1917 frame. The serial number is in the commercial N frame range. 1917s had their own SN range.

My 5" 2nd Model .44 is built on a 1917 frame. The plug was soldered in. I removed it and replace the lanyard loop.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

What is the telltale of a 1917 frame vs a commercial N frame?


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1917 frames have lanyard loops or the holes for LLs. 1917 frames do not have the S&W trademark stamp on the left side and they do have US acceptance stamps, if not polished away by refinishing.

Correction: S&W used left over 1917 frames to build 2nd Model .44s and added the S&W stamp to the left side of the frame. When built, 1917 frames didn't have the this stamp.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

That one does have the S&W logo stamp, and by its SN, it would be an early 1920s 2nd .44 Spl.

I wouldn't cry at all. As you said, the nickel job wasn't very well done. All the original sharp edges have been softened.

Otherwise collectible guns more or less ruined by a refinish are all too common.

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Psalm 27:2

I just assumed they added the small S&W logo when they re-used it for commercial sale.

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You're shy a few manners.

Would the commercial N frame, then, NOT have a lanyard loop? As in never?
Would it have the same one line address?
Are there any other ways to determine a 1917 frame vs a commercial N?
Is 4-1/2" barrel (if lettered as correct) a rarity?

I would have kept it.
But I'm a 44 SPL nut! LOL!

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

"Would the commercial N frame, then, NOT have a lanyard loop? As in never?"

If you wanted a lanyard swivel, S&W would provide it. Or it could have been added by a private gunsmith. Very simple to do.

Never say never when it comes to S&W.

A 4 1/2" barrel was not listed as a cataloged item.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

6 bills isn’t awful. Don’t think you’ll make money but you certainly won’t lose it.

The collectors value was already gone with the original finish. Don't sweat it. Neat gun though.

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"Free dirt, you dig."

The ser# is set to one side as would be proper for a factory install of a swivel. The # looks factory stamped, nice and straight and the right size characters, ect. Not like an after market stamping to install a swivel where the factory ser# had been removed and then re-stamped to one side.

I'm sure there's a pattern of 'to the front' or 'to the rear' of the swivel hole the ser# was normally placed by the factory. That I'm not sure of which side would apply for the era of mfgr.

I'd probably have kept the revolver, but that's just me. I like that sort of stuff. I have no idea what the other gun would be worth but it sounds like you did fine in the trade.
just my opinions..

Thanks for the replies. I’m curious about the “fouling cup” which I incorrectly assumed to be actual damage. I haven’t gone through ALL of my Smiths to see but I don’t recall this feature. Was this a vestigial black powder thing that later was dropped? Is it on M1917 frames but not on N frames of the era? Is this feature common on early HEs?


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I would guess the fouling cup was a holdover from the black powder days. Don't forget there were a lot of old coots out there that didn't completely trust "this here newfangled smokeless powder!" No doubt there were some handloading black powder cartridges well into the new century. I think ammo manufacturers still sold it.

I have a Commercial Version of the M1917 that I think was made on a leftover WWI frame. (It shipped late 20s / early 30s). It does indeed have the fouling cup which looks much like yours in size, shape, and depth. In fact, all its markings look a lot like yours. Mine does have the butt swivel installed and intact.

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You're shy a few manners.

Forgot to say regarding the use of black powder:
Of course the .45 ACP had no black powder antecedent. I wouldn't know if any of the aforementioned old coots would try to load this cartridge with black powder, but I do not doubt it happened.

But of course the .44 Special did start out as a black powder round, as did the .45 Colt and many other popular revolver cartridges. So it's not completely crazy that revolvers retained the fouling cup for some time.

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You're shy a few manners.