At the end of the last year I was searching for a S&W Victory.

Victory are not easy to find out there. I found one for sale on internet and asked some questions, but when I asked if assembly numbers and serial numbers were matching, the seller just told me : Have a good day.
Seriously ?!
So, I told him, well okay good luck with the sale.

Time flies... and 1 month later I was following a live auction and I was placing a bid on a Baby Russian with pearl grips and leather holster but I don’t know why it didn’t work and the Baby Russian was sold for only $250.
I was so upset, but surprisingly at the same time I had a message from the seller of the Victory. I couldn’t believe that ! He said he was sorry, he didn’t noticed I asked him about the numbers, and said assembly and serial numbers are matching.
Here in France we can’t buy a handgun as easily as you, we need to ask for an authorization to have one, it takes approximately 1 month where I live to have this paper.
So 1 month has passed and I finally got my authorization, the gun was still for sale but I found the price a little to high and I planned to make an offer to the seller. On the afternoon I had a message from the website where the gun is for sale, the seller made a $100 discount.
Well, I guess this Victory was waiting on me all this time !

So, here it is !
S&W Victory K200 British Service revolver .38S&W 5 inch #3461XX.
All assembly and serial numbers matching, pristine bore and chambers, looks like it didn’t fire too much.
Sometimes timing is not perfect and need a very little extra turning, but I didn’t remove the side plate yet and I bet it just needs to be cleaned.
No english or other proof marks.
On the right hand grip there is the « Parti Populaire Français * (French Popular Party) logo but I don’t know if it’s « original * or if a scammer made it at some point to increase the value of the gun. If the gun was owned by a P.P.F. member, it could explain that it didn’t have been shot a lot though.
Maybe the only way to be sure would be to ask for a factory letter but I don’t think I’ll do.
I don’t know if it’s a sandblast Black Magic, bright blue, or a sandblast brush blue finish though.
Also, there is a small P stamped on the butt frame just before the V.

I was searching for a .38spl Victory but it’s almost impossible to find here, I guess they were bringing back to the U.S. after the WW2.

If someone could tell me when it was approximately shipped it would be very appreciated, thanks.
Can’t wait to shoot it.

Thanks for watching

C.

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French Pollywog

A French woman collecting wartime S&Ws. You never know what to expect on these forums.

There are a couple members here who are wizards on the VMs. One will be along shortly I'm sure.

Passez une bonne journée et bonne chance.

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No life story has happy end.

Thank you Art Doc.

Despite my search, I don’t know how this S&W could have been carried by the French Popular Party though, it seems Germans gave them a few firearms.
I was thinking maybe this Victory was initially parachuted for the French Resistance.
We will never know.

I also collect WW2 stuffs.

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French Pollywog

With a V 386-range serial and the US property stamping on the top strap it would have originally shipped in mid- to later 1943 as a standard Lend-lease-destined gun. The P is a military proof applied to all Victorys by ordnance inspectors at the factory.

The finish is the standard sandblast Black Magic, the only one in use by that time.

Both the OSS and the British SOE provided arms to the Resistance via sea and air, and once in circulation in France it could have changed hands in any imaginable way to get in the hands of that particular organization; impossible to say when the PPF marking was applied.

"Maybe the only way to be sure would be to ask for a factory letter but I don’t think I’ll do."

Save your money. A historical letter will tell you nothing about what happened to it after it left the S&W factory.

The closest SN on my list to V3861xx (that appears to be the SN stamped on the butt) is V3898xx which shipped in 9/43.

I didn't see in your post whether you have removed the right grip panel and checked for serial number there. If the grip panel has the same serial number as the butt of the gun (usually without the V) then chances are that it is the original grip. If it is the original grip then I believe chances are good that French marks are also valid.

I don't have a pic of my Victory with grip panels off handy at the moment, but the attached two pics are from a K Frame Outdoorsman from the 1930's and you can see the type script that was used for the serial number stamping on the right panel.

These are number stamps, so anything that appears "hand made" or penciled may not be valid.

Anyway you look at it, you did get a nice Victory. Is the 38-200 ammunition available in France commercially, or do you have to find a handloader?

Attached Images

	DSCN1116.jpg (84.2 KB, 158 views)
	DSCN1103.jpg (54.8 KB, 134 views)

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Charlie B
SWCA#3083, SWHF#570

Nice Victory Lady Smith. (Yours looks to be a tad longer than mine as I collect the .38Special versions.)

I'm glad it all worked out for you on this purchase. Have you located any .38S&W ammo for it yet there in France?

Here is my closest serial number to your example in my collection...….I guess you could call it an older brother by about 40,000 serial numbers. IIRC it was my very first Victory revolver purchase, but I would have to check my records just to be sure of that.

Congrats, especially with all of the hoops you have to jump through just to purchase such an example.

Dale

Attached Images

	US PROPERTY GHD topstrap Victory sn V348480 (1).jpg (71.5 KB, 109 views)
	US PROPERTY GHD topstrap Victory sn V348480 (2).jpg (67.2 KB, 99 views)
	US PROPERTY GHD topstrap Victory sn V348480 (4).jpg (74.9 KB, 108 views)
	US PROPERTY GHD topstrap Victory sn V348480 (3).jpg (73.9 KB, 99 views)
	US PROPERTY GHD topstrap Victory sn V348480 (7).jpg (99.5 KB, 109 views)

The right hand grip number match the gun. The digits aren’t hand written.

As regards to the ammunition, Magtech makes them. I purchased a few boxes.

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French Pollywog

Even better with regards to both the grip serial number and ammo!

Dale

Thank you for your kind words.
I was hoping to find a .38spl but I found nothing.
Yours looks very nice. It’s kinda funny if your 1st one is close to my 1st one.

I have 4 boxes of .38s&w ammo, I haven’t enough money to purchase more right now.

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French Pollywog

You're welcome LS.

I just checked my records...….and it was the one that started it all for me. It also started my Colt Commando and S&W/Colt M1917 collecting as well.

I purchased Victory s/n 348480 almost 10 years ago in June of 2010.

My first Colt Commando was purchased in October of 2010.

Looks like I purchased my first Colt M1917 (just slightly after the Victory) also in June of 2010.

I didn't purchase my first S&W M1917 until 2011, and it was a mismatched grips/refinished Brazilian M1937 example of which I no longer own.

So I have had the U.S. WWI and WWII military revolver "bug" for about 10 years now!

Dale

What does .38-200 ammo cost in France, per box? 146 or 200 or 178 grain?

Is 9mm Luger cheaper?

Are hollow point bullets allowed?

I wish I was there to be able to have as much WW1 and WW2 revolvers as I want.
If tomorrow the government decides people aren’t allow to own an handgun, or if they decide I’m not allowed anymore to have it, I will have to give it to the police...
And I would like to shoot a .45acp revolver too, as I don’t like pistol.
The only M1917 S&W Brazilian contract I saw for sale one day cost $1,100.

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French Pollywog

Magtech .38s&w cost approx. $28 per box of 50 cartridges.
146 grain round nose.
9mm Luger and .38spl are cheaper.

Hollow point are allowed though.

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French Pollywog

Same offer I make to all brothers and sisters in other countries I meet through this forum. If you ever visit the U.S. and pass through the great state of Arkansas drop by and you can shoot anything I have hanging around.

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No life story has happy end.

Thank you Art Doc, it’s a very nice offer.
My husband and I want to go to the U.S since a few years now, so I hope to be able to visit the U.S soon.
But I doubt we’ll have the time to visit every places and states we want.

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French Pollywog

It is a big place. I was in France in 1989 and enjoyed my visit very much.

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No life story has happy end.

I am not certain if you can reload in France. If you can find lead bullets that are sized at 0.360 inches or just over 9.1 mm, and weigh between 11.6 and 11.7 grams (roughly 180 grain), and I still think that empty 0.38 S&W or the British 380 cases are allowed to be shipped into France then you can reload to almost the British 200/380 cartridge. However, Boxer primers will be needed and they might be a problem. Dave_n

Oh please! The 200 grain lead bullet load was obsolecent before World War II. The British military load from 1938 was a jacketed 178 gr bullet one.

Peter

Not so much obsolescent as contrary to the Hague Convention's prohibition of the use of expanding bullets in warfare (lead bullets were considered to be expanding). The British .380 MkI load had a 200 grain lead bullet which was replaced prior to WWII by the .380 MkII cartridge which used a 178 grain FMJ bullet, and was compliant with the Hague Convention requirements. However, the .380 MkI cartridges remaining in inventory could be used for non-combat training purposes.

Regarding the proper bullet diameter, .360-.361" is correct and preferable. However the .357-.358" bullets used for .38 Special will be satisfactory. I have used them for many years.

Merci, Madame! Prices similar to here, then.

On your proposed US visit, avoid New York and the other NE states and definitely include Texas, once a separate nation. Texas is rich in history and scenery and has probably the friendliest people. You should include visiting the Alamo in San Antonio and ride a tour boat on the San Antonio River, lined with many shops and restaurants. Most, not all, serve Mexican food.

Pretty civilized hotels, too. The Plaza Nacional/Four Seasons had Twining's teas when I last visited.

And the zoo is exceptional. Lackland AFB and other military bases are there.

Bonne chance. You've now seen about half of my French vocabulary. But my son lives on the way to San Antonio, and may well show you the city. He and his wife met our New Zealand members there last year, and his French is pretty good.

I very much enjoy reading your posts. What part of France is your home?

Yes I can reload but I’m not sure I will do for this one.

Anyway, fire ranges are now closed over here due to the Covid-19. So I don’t know when I will be able to shoot it.

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French Pollywog

Thank you !
To be honest I would like to visit Texas, there are many places I would like to visit over there.
I noticed many Texans seem to be friendly on the forum.
I don’t like New York and other big cities, if I go to the U.S. I want to see the country side.
Anyway, due to the Covid-19 we can go nowhere for now.
I hope we will be able to get rid of this **** soon

I live in the South-East France, near Toulon.

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French Pollywog

What a great old revolver! I'm still looking for "my" Victory. Congratulations on your acquisition.

Yes Peter, I am aware of that change but trying to find the correct FMJ bullet would be an exercize in frustration, however I happily reload my 38 S&Ws (Webleys, Enfields and BSRs) using a 180 grain lead bullet sized at 0.360 that mimics the 380/200 load as far as POA etc., is concerned. Dave_n

Dave-

Do you know what velocity you're getting? How's accuracy?

I read years ago in a UK gun mag. that RAF shooting teams were occasionally getting bullets stuck in S&W barrels. I think they're tighter than .38 Webley and Enfield bores.

Pity they never loaded wadcutter "man stopper" ammo in this weak caliber, but that'd have defeated the goal of having more "humane" loads.

In .455, those loads were seemingly quite effective. At least some lots were marked, "Not For Use Against Europeans."

Has anyone here tried the hot Buffalo Bore ammo in this caliber? Does it shoot to the sights? I think a warm wadcutter handload would be best if anyone has to rely on a .38 S&W for defense. The hollow base might expand to fill the wider bore.

It's not difficult to make .38 S&W handloads which duplicate the standard .38 Special load. I came into a supply of old duPont #5 pistol powder last year and have been using it for .38 S&W as it seems appropriate. I believe #5 (long obsolete) is fairly close to Unique, maybe a bit faster. Anyway, my loads use the 145 grain MBC lead bullet (.360) and 3.9 grains of #5, it produces a MV around 830 ft/sec, and is surprisingly mild to shoot in a BSR. Would advise against shooting such loads in any of the old top break revolvers.

.357-.358" .38 Special bullets work fine in .38 S&W.

I have read that during WWII, British soldiers sometimes used captured German 9mm ammo in their .380 revolvers in a pinch. Apparently the British were very stingy in issuing .380 ammo so they made do with what they could get. They would use a punch and hammer to create a crude rim on the 9mm case so it wouldn't fall into the chamber.

I have never chrono'd that load but I do have some Mk II with the 178 grain FMJ bullet from a "supplier that shall be nameless" dating from the Suez "Affair", and using them in the same pistol (Webley, Enfield or BSR) at 7 to 10 yards, effectively the same point of aim (I load one Mk II then my own, then MKII etc). I do not want to use Buffalo Bore loads in my Webley's and Enfields (particularly the Mk I that has my birth year on it). I have used 0.455 loads using the 265 grain HB Lead (Jet Bullets in Canada still sells them), and a 255 grain 0.454 LSWC that also are quite soft in recoil, but I would not want to be the recipient of either. Slow-moving large chunks of lead do seem to be "rather effective under wartime conditions. Dave_n

Dave-

Thanks. BTW, if anyone doesn't recall, I think that Suez time frame was 1956? Well, if you're not getting misfires, it works. Are the primers corrosive?

I've no idea if powder then was Cordite or flake.

Hi y’all,

I would like to know if I can use powder and lead solvant, and also Hope’s n°9 without causing any damage to the finish ?

I also want to clean the action. Do I have to be careful about something in particular with this gun ?

Thanks

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French Pollywog

No commercial bore cleaner will damage the finish. Best to remove the sideplate and disassemble the lockwork for a thorough cleaning and lubrication. It's not that difficult. There is a trick to removing the sideplate without damaging it (mainly don't try to pry it off, although some do it that way). There are YouTube videos showing how to disassemble a S&W. The quick and easy way is to get a can of spray carburetor cleaner solvent and blast everything by sticking the red tube into all openings around the hammer and trigger. Or just soak the whole gun overnight in a suitable container of mineral spirits.

Gevelot used to make this cartridge in France, and some of that old stuff is still around.

Hey there,

Finally I was busy with other stuffs during the lockdown so I removed the side plate of my Victory only today.

The action was clean, but dry, so I spread out a mixture of oil and grease that I use on each of my guns with a toothbrush .
I thought the action would be more complicated being a double action than my single action I disassembled one day.
Everything seems to work correctly, nothing seems to be worn.

But unfortunately, I still have a very little timing issue on 2 chambers.
Cylinder stop doesn't seem to be worn, ratchet and cylinder notches neither, so I don't understand.
I need to extra turn the cylinder with 2 fingers from about less than 1mm to get it locked by the cylinder stop.
I don't think the problem comes from the action, because the problem should be on every chambers in this case I guess.

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French Pollywog

How free is the cylinder? Does it spin freely? There could be a build up of residue and old oil inside the cylinder. It is easily disassembled and cleaned. Just pay attention to the order of everything as it comes apart so as to reassemble it correctly. Lubricating with a light oil or CLP is usually recommended. I have always had good luck with Break Free.

Spent a year in your country, stationed at the Chaumont Air Force base. It was conveniently located about half way between Paris and Switzerland which I was fortunate to visit. Lovely country.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Richard, do you mean to disassembly the cylinder from the yoke ?
If so, I don't know how to do but I have a book about how to disassembly a S&W model 1902, maybe it's the same thing.

Thank you.

I went to Paris when I was 18 or so with my ex boyfriend, but we were poor at this time so we just visited places from the exterior, but yeah it's nice, I just don't like people who live there, most of them are too stressed.

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French Pollywog

I feel you have an extremely interesting Revolver. I'm not sure it anyone has mentioned this yet, but both the Germans, & the French Millice are known to have utilized numerous Allied arms obtained primarily from captured 'arms drops' by the British S.O.E. & the U.S. O.S.S.. Amongst the captured weapons used were Sten SMG, S&W & Colt Revolvers, M1 Carbines, & assorted others. These 'drops' we're initially intended for the French 'Resistance' Forces, but many times were captured intact by the Axis Occupation Forces.

Best, dpast32

LS, if I may venture a guess the two cylinders that are out of time are opposite from each other?

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Brad Beck

Fladiverbrad, no they are following each other.

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French Pollywog

Thank you !

As we say here, you buy the gun, not the story that comes with it.
We will never know if the PPS symbol was made back in the days but anyway, I like to think it could be.
I had a little hope to find something else interesting engraved behind the hand grips but no.
I was also looking for other markings but nothing at all.

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French Pollywog

Lady Smith, it is possible that the cylinder rotation is eccentric. This happens when the center pin is bent and causes the cylinder to tilt in the frame. In other words, the face of the cylinder is not the same distance from the firing pin through its rotation. You will get good strikes where the cylinder is closer to the firing pin and light or no strikes when it moves away from the firing pin. You may be able to see this by holding the gun up and turned at 90 degrees so you can view the cylinder and the frame. Then, you pull back on the hammer slightly and rotate the cylinder while looking to see if it stays square to the frame. If you see a tilt in the cylinder during rotation, you probably have a bent center pin. This can be remedied by removing it and tapping the bend in it down with a hammer until it is straight. I'm sure the folks in the gunsmithing forum would be happy to help you fix this if you determine the pin is bent.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Hey guys,

I finally shot this old lil’ boy yesterday for the first time.
Never too late…
It was the first time I shot the .38 S&W as well. I was surprised that there is no recoil.

I checked every time if the timing was good, as I know there is a bad timing sometimes, but it seems when it’s loaded it’s happening less often.

I didn’t shot since July 2021, so I’m not disappointed with the accuracy of this little guy

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French Pollywog

Actually, I have seen several Victory model guns that were virtually brand new that had timing issues. S&W was producing guns so fast they did have some quality problems. Charles Pate says in his book that the US Navy actually reached a point where they refused to receive any more guns till quality was improved! I believe that was in 1943, may have been 44.
You may need to replace the hand.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I'm getting out of my element here, but I kind'a like Guy's bent cylinder pin--------replacing the hand is going to impact all of the chambers, not just two---although two of the little gizzies the hand contacts could be boogered.

Ralph Tremaine

I didn’t hear about that !
That being said, if the problem was coming from the hand, it should happens every time, on each chamber.

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French Pollywog

Not necessarily. There are six teeth on the ratchet. Two of them are smaller than the others. If you replace the hand with one that is longer and/or thicker, it might put all six in time. The hope is that a longer/thicker hand will work on all six teeth without binding.
OCCASIONALLY, and only occasionally, IF no hand can be fitted that will work with all six teeth, I can agree that peening the two small teeth is worth a try. That is the only time I agree with peening teeth- when no hand that will work can be fitted.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Excuse me but what do you mean by “gizzie” please ?

One day I removed the side plate to take a look at the hand and it didn’t seem to be worn.
I remember the side plate was very difficult to put back in place and that I needed the help of a plastic hammer.
Also, the action looks very complicated to me and I’m afraid to do something wrong.
So, I’m not very enthusiast to open it again

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French Pollywog

What part are you referring to?
The center pin is the skinny rod that locks into the recoil shield. I have never seen a bent one. Even if bent, I don't see how it could cause the wobble you are talking about. A cylinder does not have much room to wobble on the yoke.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

In fact, after having shot it, I’m not sure the issue is happening on same chambers. Also, sometimes there is no issue at all. I could shot 20 cartridges without having a bad timing issue.
I should make a mark or something on the cylinder for each chambers to identify if the problem is happening on different or same chambers, but I have currently no idea how I could do that without damage.

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French Pollywog

Damn !
I don’t know how I could read this and totally forgot to check this !
I will take a look and keep you updated asap.

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French Pollywog

I bet you could mark it with a crayon or wax pencil and it would stay on long enough to do some troubleshooting, but come off easily and cleanly.