S&W M&P 2" Sub Nose manufacture year

Old Burnt Hickory · #1 03-12-2020, 08:09 AM

Hello All,
So I purchased this snub nose revolver at my local gun show last weekend. Was in fairly good condition, however, looks to have be re-nickeled or re-chromed and the serial number is now illegible. Here's what I know: It is a Hand ejector, no serial no., .38 special revolver with a 2 " barrel and hand ejector fixed sights. I only count 4 screws. It has the mushroom tip ejector rod. After some research I would estimate this is a Model 1905 4th Change manufactured between 1936 to 1942, most likely closer to 1936.
If anyone can help pin it down a bit more, would be much appreciated. Will send pics shortly.
Thanks

murphydog · #2 03-12-2020, 08:13 AM

Welcome! Photos are really helpful here, as the original 2" barrel .38 M & Ps had the straight ejector rod, and the "mushroom" shaped end was only used until 1927.

No serial number on the bottom of the grip frame is a problem, as having a gun with an altered or removed original SN is not legal.

Old Burnt Hickory · #3 03-12-2020, 08:48 AM

Thanks Alan. Trying to compress the photos so I can upload. As for the serial number, yea, I spoke with local law enforcement here and they said it would be ok as long as it wasn't intentionally removed. There are remnants of it on the base of the frame, just not legible. Appreciate the input....will try to get photos up soon.

RKmesa · #4 03-12-2020, 09:03 AM

The SN should also be on the barrel flat and on the rear of the cylinder for a M&P of that vintage. If you could give us those numbers, that would help us give you some information.

Old Burnt Hickory · #5 03-12-2020, 10:09 AM

Best I can see....nothing on the barrel flat but the rear of the cylinder looks to be 83563.

Absalom · #6 03-12-2020, 10:23 AM

Does this 2” barrel have the front lug underneath for the ejector rod or is the rod unsupported?

The absence of the lug would indicate a cut barrel, and in that case, especially with a heavy nickel refinish, a re-modeled former British Service model from WW II is always a likely suspect.

PS: While your local law enforcement’s attitude is unsurprising and fairly typical, it’s not quite in line with the law as viewed by BATF

Old Burnt Hickory · #7 03-12-2020, 10:59 AM

Thanks All.
Pics are attached. Appreciate your feedback. I'll double check on the legality issue, definitely want to be compliant.

Old Burnt Hickory · #8 03-12-2020, 11:02 AM

Attaching more pics in differ format

Old Burnt Hickory · #9 03-12-2020, 11:24 AM

Double checked serial no on barrel, definitely 8356X. No numbers or letters preceding the "8".

merl67 · #10 03-12-2020, 11:51 AM

This should help

Absalom · #11 03-12-2020, 11:53 AM

That barrel and ejector rod assembly definitely looks hand-made. There were no factory snubs made before 1927, when that knob was discontinued. The missing barrel pin also indicates that the barrel was off.

Absent a definite frame serial and any logos, which may or may not have fallen victim to heavy polishing for the refinish, the age of the frame is hard to nail down.

Taking the number off the barrel, a five digit starting with 8 would be from before WW I. But the barrel underside seems to have been re-shaped for the knob, so there’s no way to be sure which serialed part is original unless you can come up with another numbered part. Try the back of the extractor star and the back side of the yoke (the swing-out arm; you have to look through a chamber with a flashlight; it’s quite awkward, but worth a try).

PS: Looking at the barrel close-up some more, this may be a legit 2” barrel stuck on an older frame. The underbarrel cut doesn’t quite match the knob. They may have just shortened the rod to make it fit.

But the five digit serial with no prefix still does not fit an original 2” barrel, unless an unnumbered spare barrel was used and then numbered to the gun.

Torakan · #12 03-12-2020, 12:31 PM

Pretty cool revolver all said and done. I wouldn’t worry too much about the Ser # putting you at odds with law enforcement or the ATF.

Art Doc · #13 03-12-2020, 12:54 PM

Can you get your money back?

k22fan · #14 03-12-2020, 01:44 PM

The two line barrel roll stamp was not used on longer barrels. That makes it a factory 2" barrel. Since those were rare before WW-II it most likely is a post WW-II barrel on an old frame.

In its own way it is kind of a neat gun but due to the wording of Washington State law I would not buy it for $1 or even allow it on my property. While his local police gave him practical advice there are so many unquestionably legal guns that it makes no sense for me to buy a potentially troublesome one.

Your local laws might be different. A gunsmith can write BATFE and ask them to issue a new serial number which he can stamp on the gun making it legal again. The serial number appears to only have been lost to careless preparation for refinishing. I have read that is the sort of situation the process is intended to correct. It would not hurt to look under the stocks to see if that was already done. It was posted here that ATF used to assign numbers with the prefix ATF.

kwill1911 · #15 03-12-2020, 02:01 PM

Quote:

I wouldn’t worry too much about the Ser # putting you at odds with law enforcement or the ATF.

Why not? I agree it is low probability of getting caught and convicted but why take ANY chance of a felony conviction over a $50 mutt of a gun resulting in the inability to ever own another firearm?

Quote:

...ATF used to assign numbers with the prefix ATF.

The operative words here are "used to" since that has not been their policy for many years now.

Low probability but it happens:

Old Burnt Hickory · #16 03-12-2020, 02:02 PM

Thank you to everyone that responded. Based on the facts of the gun, I was thinking it might be a Frankenstein kinda thing but wasn't sure. I agree, I believe it to be a shorter barrel affixed onto an older frame. It feels smooth and locks up fairly tight so I'm fine with it as it is. I'll give a good look to find any indications of the serial. Worst case I can removed the finish on the base and retrieve it that way. Again, thanks for the responses.

kwill1911 · #17 03-12-2020, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Worst case I can removed the finish on the base and retrieve it that way.

Doubtful. You really should try to get your money back.

By the way, welcome to the forum! I hope this experience doesn't sour you right off the bat.

Torakan · #18 03-12-2020, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwill1911

Why not? I agree it is low probability of getting caught and convicted but why take ANY chance of a felony conviction over a $50 mutt of a gun resulting in the inability to ever own another firearm?

The operative words here are "used to" since that has not been their policy for many years now.

Low probability but it happens:

Well here we go again. So, I just walked next door to the ATF office (I work for another Fed LE Agency in the same Fed Bldg) and asked. The answer was, per their RAC, that unless it was used in a crime or with ensuing criminal intent, or the individual owner had obscured the Ser # with the INTENT to avoid tracing the gun when used in the crime, they wouldn’t waste their time on it. But I guess if you think the ATF is lurking around your gun stash or range facility no matter what anyone says will matter.

k22fan · #19 03-12-2020, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torakan

Well here we go again. [...] they {BATF} wouldn’t waste their time on it. [...]

The local sheriff won't waste his resources prosecuting residential burglaries and won't even take a report of mail theft if you walk into their office to fill out a form in the lobby. My guess is most S&Wforum members would still loose sleep with a guilty conscience if they committed those crimes.

Besides, I'll bet his snub with legal issues did not cost a dime less than many others at the show that had their serial numbers. There is no benefit in committing the crime. No thank-you.

We do not need to apologize for wanting to sleep well.