Bear Market Seems Not to Affect all S&Ws

glowe · #1 03-16-2020, 07:07 PM

I picked up a S&W K frame Target in 32 W.C.F. and felt that I probably paid all the money for the gun. The 32 HE, 4th Model shipped in 1924 that was assumed to be in very nice condition, but after a little clean-up, it looks like a great example of a caliber target gun not often found for sale.

For those not familiar with purchasing online auction guns, the premiums and fees can get you in trouble if not paying attention. This 32 HE, 4th was a good example. I paid $750 at auction, sounds like a good price. Then I had to add buyer premium of $112, and since the gun was in-state another 6% sales tax on the auction price with premium, another $51. Shipping and handling was $24. I have a C&R FFL, but without it, one would pay FFL transfer fees. So I am in the gun for $937.

I am not complaining, since finding a 32-20 Target is tough and one in this condition is near impossible. I am happy with the purchase. I am relatively new to pre-WWII K frame targets and wondered what other think about the purchase?

Anyway, here is what I go in the mail last week.

glowe · #2 03-16-2020, 07:14 PM

Oh, did I forget to mention the box? Well, it was the major reason why I bought the 32-20. Had this box and thought I would not find a proper vintage gun for it, so another reason why I am happy to own one of these gems.

I am curious if anyone has ran across this type box? I cannot fins an example even in SCSW4? It looks black, but I think it is actually a very dark maroon. It has a two language instruction label inside, but must have preceeded the clam shell or patent box that many are familiar with from the mid to late 1920s.

Well the new acquisition fits like a glove and the world is just right at this moment, and yes the gun will be going to the range soon.

PALADIN85020 · #3 03-16-2020, 07:19 PM

Beautiful gun, and the box you already had is icing on the cake!

Don'tcha just love it when a plan comes together???

John

H Richard · #4 03-16-2020, 07:21 PM

WOW, a 90 - 100 year old S&W that is still NIB!!!! Not every day you find one of those.

Drm50 · #5 03-16-2020, 07:25 PM

I’ve been looking for 32/20 HE Target for several years. I’ve not come across one in condition I would be happy with at reasonable price. In fact some in fairly common condition tagged $1K.

JH1951 · #6 03-16-2020, 07:26 PM

Very, very nice. The box sets it off quite well.
Thanks for sharing.

Dieseltech56 · #7 03-16-2020, 07:55 PM

I’ve seen people pay way more for way less. I’d say you did very good final value fees and all.

glowe · #8 03-16-2020, 08:35 PM

Thanks for the replies.

Well, the gun was very tight and when I first pulled the hammer back, it had a little catch, but seemed to function fine. Every time I cocked the gun, it did the same thing as the trigger set in the single action sear. I thought maybe it was just because of dried grease, so I stripped it down. Found some clear grease-like substance in a couple spots that had partially hardened and in spots where the factory could have put them when assembling the gun. When I removed the rebound slide, I found the problem - a broken rebound slide spring. It would function, but the two pieces of spring would snap past each other as the trigger moved.

So add another $6.50 from Numrich order and I will be all set. Why it happened, I will never know but may have been defective from the factory since not many rounds have gone through this one??

Walter Rego · #9 03-16-2020, 08:43 PM

Looks like a $1200 gun and box to me. I'd say you did just fine all things considered.
I have a .32-20 M&P with a 5" barrel that shipped to a hardware store in Buffalo, NY in 1923. Seems like an odd location, but maybe a farmer from the area outside of the city wanted something for varmints. It has a good, sharp CRACK ! with factory ammo and is fun to shoot. I'll bet Target Models in that caliber were less than 10% of an already low production number.

iskra · #10 03-16-2020, 09:01 PM

Hi Glowe - that gun certainly a 'bright' idea! Couple of remarks please.
Don't know prices, but a really nice Smith! In my active years of collecting, the price was a lesser factor. The prime double question by which I was guided...
How much do I really want the gun. Infinite guns, finite finances. But the second, equally important; how long might it take to find such specimen and of equal condition. Based on the info you have provided, the purchase would well 'fit' my criteria!
Think you did very well. The 98%+ guns are something of a world to themselves. In uncommon models/factory configurations, especially so.
Congrats!

The "Bear Market" with two dimensions here. Such market as uniquely pertaining to guns and the wider one in general. Re guns, the present 'now' generation, lives wrapped re the electronic world! Also, consequential, the concept that anything over three years old is simply "obsolete". Used electronics, largely scrap pile material. Collector 'stuff', a depreciating market across the board!
Re the wider market, simpler formula, as recession looms, "disposable income" shrinks and monied investors accounts shrinking. For the vast majority as firearms not employment related, the market to shrink! If it's a blip, perhaps to ride the storm. A major readjustment... "Other!" America is showing it's "soft underbelly" vulnerability. Not to go into why here as a political matter.
Best & enjoy the 'new toy' and with the box at hand... Amazing!
John

John

deputydon · #11 03-16-2020, 09:02 PM

You ain't hurt! In fact I would be happy to give you your money back plus shipping. Course you have to throw in the box !!!!

mh51 · #12 03-16-2020, 11:41 PM

Nice find, Gary. I bought a 90% one at Tulsa about 6 years ago, and paid more for it. But, they ain't easy to find!

Muley Gil · #13 03-17-2020, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter Rego

Looks like a $1200 gun and box to me. I'd say you did just fine all things considered.
I have a .32-20 M&P with a 5" barrel that shipped to a hardware store in Buffalo, NY in 1923. Seems like an odd location, but maybe a farmer from the area outside of the city wanted something for varmints. It has a good, sharp CRACK ! with factory ammo and is fun to shoot. I'll bet Target Models in that caliber were less than 10% of an already low production number.

Most guns were sold from hardware stores back in the day.

merl67 · #14 03-17-2020, 03:00 AM

Gary that is a beautiful gun if you figure maybe 10% were target models how many are you ever going to see much, less in just about new condition with barely a turn line? I doubt you would have much problem selling it for a pretty good profit especially with a correct box thanks for brightening a gloomy day...

bracebeemer · #15 03-17-2020, 07:26 AM

Gary, I feel you got a real bargain. 32-20 targets do not grow on trees. I purchased a 99% target that was shipped to San Francisco in 1917. I paid $2800 for it about 6or 7 years ago and felt lucky to get it. The box you have is probably earlier because they refer to the caliber as 32 Winchester which they stopped using around 1913. Still a beautiful package. Bill

glowe · #16 03-17-2020, 09:29 AM

After I read the text and reviewed the images, I realize it was confusing, so am hopefully improving the post.

Bill, To answer your question, the dual language K frame gun boxes seem to be post-1915, since I do not believe that the company started dual language boxes before that time. As for the Winchester label, I believe it is appropriate, but transitioning by the mid-1920s. I have a 1923 and 1924 S&W catalog which still advertises the 32 Winchester M&Ps in 1923 but changed to 32 W.C.F in the 1924 catalog. I have never seen a box label 32-20 from this time period from 1899 to the mid-1920s, but guess that by the end of the 1920s it was probably used exclusively.

There were about five different early K frame boxes made for early K frame hand ejectors. The 1st style box was for the Model 1899 up to 1902. It had a single end label and an English language interior label explaining how to open the 1899. Interior labels changed with the 2nd style box in 1902 with the addition of the cylinder release thumb piece. Around 1910, they switched to the 3rd style box with dual end labels. The top line stated whether the gun was Square or Round butt. The interior label remained pretty much the same as for the earlier 1902 box. The 4th style box, with dual language interior label around 1915 and ran to the mid-1920s. The patent box or clam-shell box was the 5th style and ran to near the start of WWII.

The left box in the attached images is a box that started in 1899. These single end label box without the thumb-piece instructions ended in 1902, and was replaced by the thumb piece interior instructions which ran to around 1910. Boxes then changed to a two part end label around 1910. The dual end label box started somewhere near 1910, and the dual label boxes with two language instructions started around 1915. What I think is that these boxes were not made past 1925, as they were gradually replaced by the clam-shell/patent boxes that ran up to near WWII. These dates and box styles definitely have an over-lap period, using up older boxes with updated labels. I guess we can call them "transition" boxes!

Drm50 · #17 03-17-2020, 12:52 PM

Two years ago I saw one at small show in Ohio. One of best I’ve ever seen and guy wanted north of $2K for it. My area is not hard to pick up S&W and Colts in 32/20 but they are service models.

bracebeemer · #18 03-17-2020, 02:27 PM

Gary , that was a great primer on vintage boxes. I took some photos of my one and only “antique “ box. I call this box a pasteboard box and the gun that came with it shipped in 1911. Does this box square up with your dates? Bill

murphydog · #19 03-17-2020, 02:27 PM

Either $750 or $937 is a great price for this one

. Enjoy!

bracebeemer · #20 03-17-2020, 02:30 PM

I keep forgetting to download the photos. Duh!

glowe · #21 03-17-2020, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bracebeemer

I keep forgetting to download the photos. Duh!

I am often guilty of that as well! I also made an error in my post #16. I left out the single end label that ran from 1902 to sometime near 1910. That seems to be when the dual box label started, so your 1911 box would be in the ballpark.

I would love to hear about any other dated early K frame boxes out there to help refine my estimates.

raljr1 · #22 03-17-2020, 09:24 PM

Looks like you did nicely.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

glowe · #23 04-08-2020, 10:41 AM

I wanted to add this auction gun to the mix. This 32-20 Target recently sold for over $4500 on GB! I was very surprised, but pleased since I think my example is almost on par with this one. One interesting difference between the two guns is that this revolver has a matte blue and was wondering if there was a change in finish in the 1920s? My gun is not gloss blue, but is what I would describe as a semi-gloss appearance. This gun that just sold is flat blue. Mine was from August 1924 and this example is from around 1926-1927. Even the stocks have a different finish? Can anybody comment on the finish changed in the 1920s? I seem to recall that there was an ordering option for a higher gloss finish somewhere around that time-frame.

Another feature was that my gun is stamped 32 W.C.F. and this gun is 32-20,, so a change in stamping was made between this serial number range from 110,XXX to 134,XXX.

Anyway, a great price realized by the seller for a super example of a 32-20 Target.

bruce5781 · #24 04-09-2020, 09:22 AM

The flat blue on the recent auction gun is due to the photos only. It took me a while to get used to them, but I finally realized that they show any flaws much better that way.
A forum member is responsible for those photos, and after purchasing several guns, I have always been happy with the lustrous finish on the guns I received.

Regards,
Bruce

glowe · #25 04-09-2020, 09:33 AM

Thanks Bruce, I know the sellers, but have to wonder how they accomplish the flat matte finish appearance?? My images always seem to show more gloss than they actually have, even without flash and multi-angled lighting. I do oil my guns, and that does contribute more "shine" in images, but I am not selling them. . . . . . yet.

mrcvs · #26 04-09-2020, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I wanted to add this auction gun to the mix. This 32-20 Target recently sold for over $4500 on GB!

Consider the source: Gunbroker. The land of rampant shill bidding and one individual and a shill bidder or two ignorant or even less mobile individuals who are unable to actively seek or unaware that, certain firearms can be had for far less in other venues. I did not waste my time looking at a bidding pattern, but often it's two individuals going at it , usually one with no past purchases (the shill bidder). Gunbroker doesn't care. They make more money this way. I'm even fairly certain at least one member of this forum engages in such techniques. Illegal? Doubtful. Unethical? Yes.

glowe · #27 04-09-2020, 01:48 PM

I agree some of that goes on, except this one is woodlawn boys gun. No shill bidders there for sure!!!

RKmesa · #28 04-09-2020, 05:15 PM

Beautiful Package Gary!!!

Thanks for sharing!

mrcvs · #29 04-11-2020, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

Consider the source: Gunbroker. The land of rampant shill bidding and one individual and a shill bidder or two ignorant or even less mobile individuals who are unable to actively seek or unaware that, certain firearms can be had for far less in other venues. I did not waste my time looking at a bidding pattern, but often it's two individuals going at it , usually one with no past purchases (the shill bidder). Gunbroker doesn't care. They make more money this way. I'm even fairly certain at least one member of this forum engages in such techniques. Illegal? Doubtful. Unethical? Yes.

With regards to shill bidding, I did further research as I was unsure of the closing statements in the above. Of course it's illegal: Shill Bidding Really, the difficulty would be in proving that shill bidding actually occurs. Detecting shill bidding is addressed in this article: https://www.instructables.com/id/Int...dding-on-EBay/ So, does anyone know if the same methods are used in Gunbroker, where someone bids it up and the top, or shill bidder, doesn't pay up and the second highest bidder ends up purchasing the lot at a greatly inflated price?

Market makers (auction websites) are supposed to make a careful re-evaluation of the risks of shill bidding, as only they are in a position to take meaningful action to prevent it from occurring: Shill bidding: Empirical evidence of its effectiveness and likelihood of detection in online auction systems - ScienceDirect
I seriously doubt that would happen! That would cut into the profits of on-line auction sites, such as Gunbroker.

Here's my take on all this--it's illegal and difficult to prove and there's no incentive for ANY on-line venue to waste time and money proving it occurs as they are spending money on a cause that would decrease their profits.

model3sw · #30 04-11-2020, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Oh, did I forget to mention the box? Well, it was the major reason why I bought the 32-20. Had this box and thought I would not find a proper vintage gun for it, so another reason why I am happy to own one of these gems.

I am curious if anyone has ran across this type box? I cannot fins an example even in SCSW4? It looks black, but I think it is actually a very dark maroon. It has a two language instruction label inside, but must have preceeded the clam shell or patent box that many are familiar with from the mid to late 1920s.

Well the new acquisition fits like a glove and the world is just right at this moment, and yes the gun will be going to the range soon.

Gary,

It always warms my heart when a sweetie S&W like this ends up in the hands of a worthy caretaker.

I'd say that you and it are a perfect match.

Congratulations on this fantastic find.

The 4th models, of course, were manufactured for the longest period of time but all pre-war target model M&Ps are (or were) listed as "special order" only, although I perceive that once the target model became more popular that S&W likely had a short stock of some on hand, "just in case".

I have a near mint, early 4th change .32 M&P, but not target sights. Breaks my heart because it is so gorgeous, just not a target model.

While I do not seek out fixed or military sighted S&Ws, (while usually seeking only the target sighted variation) I won't pass up a gorgeous non-target sighted M&P.

Again, good find, and congrats.

Sal Raimondi

dobk63 · #31 04-11-2020, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I am often guilty of that as well! I also made an error in my post #16. I left out the single end label that ran from 1902 to sometime near 1910. That seems to be when the dual box label started, so your 1911 box would be in the ballpark.

I would love to hear about any other dated early K frame boxes out there to help refine my estimates.

Could you post the pic of that 1902-1910 box. Here is a box I have that is supposed to be 1902-1903.

glowe · #32 04-11-2020, 01:29 PM

Looks just like one I have for a Model 1902. It is dated May 1903 on the bottom along with the name of the owner and West Texas National Bank, Big Springs, TX. This was the same style box as used with the Model 1899, but with a different interior label. As far as I can ascertain, it continued to around 1910 before changing styles.

Kinman · #33 04-12-2020, 03:29 PM

Simply amazing, well done. I followed that piece from the Boys on G.B.

dobk63 · #34 04-12-2020, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Looks just like one I have for a Model 1902. It is dated May 1903 on the bottom along with the name of the owner and West Texas National Bank, Big Springs, TX. This was the same style box as used with the Model 1899, but with a different interior label. As far as I can ascertain, it continued to around 1910 before changing styles.

Thank you. That is a great help.