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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 03-21-2020, 02:29 PM
BidderRV BidderRV is offline
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Default Triple Lock Parts needed.

I came across a 4" (cut off) triple lock at a recent gun show and it needs a few parts to bring it up to shooter status. I need the extractor rod and the knurled end cap. It appears to have one that came from a 2nd model hand ejector with the mushroom cap ground down. The center pin appears to be original but the extractor rod does not have the exterior built on collar to hold back the extractor spring. The extractor spring is missing also but that should be easy to locate. My Question: I saw a photo posted by Delta 19 of what appears to be a newly machined extractor rod, knurled cap and center pin for the triple lock. Could anyone inform me of where these might be obtained or who created the set and if they are available? These parts would make if fully functional and it would at least bring it up to the "Cripple Collection" level.
Thank you,
RV
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Old 03-21-2020, 03:04 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
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Have you sent Delta 19 a private message to ask him where he obtained said parts?
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Old 03-21-2020, 05:52 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
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From Delta, Maker of Delta’s TL parts:

"He has a shop; ACCU-METAL, 3987 North "W" Street, Pensacola, FL 32505 and you can also reach him at Dan@Accu-Metal.com, his phone number is (850)912-4855. His name is Daniel Widmer. He has an impressive amount of equipment and skill. Dan's cell phone is (419)345-2990. I find it best to reach him after 4pm weekdays at the shop. ~ $550."

There's other parts substitutions of later model parts that will work if the gun is not worth that expenditure.
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Last edited by Hondo44; 03-21-2020 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 03-21-2020, 06:01 PM
BidderRV BidderRV is offline
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Thank you both Mulley Gil and Hondo44. I may try to locate usable substitutes. $550 is a little more than I think the package would be worth but I totally understand the price. There would be lot of precise machining to make that extractor rod and cap. That type of machinery is not cheap.
Thank you again,
RV
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Old 03-21-2020, 06:44 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
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RV,

In that case you may find this helpful:


44 TRIPLE LOCK EXTRACTOR ASSEMBLY AND CYL PARTS

BACKGROUND:

The 1908 .44 HE 1st model (triple lock) lacks the divot on the recoil shield because the it has a 'front spring loaded center pin' which was changed on the .44 2nd model to a 'rear spring loaded center pin' that remains to this day.

Although Smith had the design of the .44 2nd model and subsequent .44s already perfected in the .38 1902 2nd year production after the engineering change, Smith went thru an exercise with quite a different design for their first N frame, the 1908 triple lock. Then switched to the 1902 design in 1915 on the .44 2nd model.

The triple (middle) lock cam plate is only for retracting the middle and front locks. It does not retract the ctr pin because the pin is spring loaded to the front and already retracted by its own spring. It's held in the lock position by the center and front locking bolt springs, against the ctr pin spring tension. The TL therefore does not have a divot in the recoil shield to act as a ctr pin ramp.

The divot on the recoil shield on other models is for retracting the ctr pin and is held in the locked position by its spring.

The other models I can think of off the top of my head are the M frame 2nd and 3rd model Ladysmiths, which have no divot on the recoil shield because they also have a ctr pin spring loaded to the front.


TL EXTRACTOR ASSEMBLY PARTS DIFFERENCES FROM LATER MODELS AND PARTS SUBSTITUTIONS:

These are things one can do to get a TL working again permanently or until the right parts are found. The 2nd Model and later N frame parts can be substituted as an entire unit or just certain parts, depending on which original TL parts are damaged or missing.

Although different, the TL extractor system can be adapted from the 2nd Model and later extractor assembly parts. TL parts are assembled differently but all the same overall lengths as later N frames with a few slight dimensional differences as outlined below.


1. The TL yoke cylinder axis tube is the same as later models.

2. The TL extractor rod:

The TL extractor rod has the large spring retaining collar machined integral to the rod necessitating the separate screw off knob on the front end to remove the rod from the rear of the yoke.
Later pre war rods for shrouded barrels have non-removable, integral knobs of the same size, but a separate spring collar for removability of the rod from the front of the yoke. Therefore a later pre war rod with integral barrel knob from the 1928 thru WWII period can be used in a TL with the caveat that the TL rod is slightly larger in diameter, .266” vs. .242” rod on all later models but works just fine.

3. The TL cylinder:

The main difference of the TL cyl from later model cyls is: the TL ctr pin is .020" larger in diameter at the rear end than later model ctr pins. Therefore the later cyl ctr pin hole in the extractor star will need to be enlarged accordingly. (Pg. 215-216 S&W 1857 -1945.)
The TL cyl is the same inside the center hole as other N frame cyls. The TL cyl is slightly longer than later cylinders by only .002” to .004" which only require cyl shims to use a 2nd model or later cyl, therefore a minor issue.

4. The key difference is the center pin:

The TL extractor center pin is sprung to the front, in the opposite direction from any subsequent Hand Ejector models which are all sprung to the rear. Hence you’ll notice there is no divot in the TL recoil shield.

The TL ctr pin is the same OAL 4.080” to 4.090” (depending on final fitting to the front lock) as later N frames. But the critical difference is; the rear .687” length of the TL pin is .020” larger diameter than the rest of the pin, .119”+/- and .143” on the end, (later pins are .115”+/- and .122” on the end). Therefore to properly fit the hole in the TL star and in the TL recoil plate, a .687” long bushing by .143” O.D. must be pressed or sweated on the rear end of a standard N frame ctr pin. If you ctr pin is too short, this bushing can be left solid on the back end and installed only far enough to get the correct overall ctr pin length of ~4.085”.

The later, and much easier obtainable, rear sprung center pin has a collar that must be moved about 5/32" forward. For our substitution scenario, simply turning off the collar in a lathe and replacing it with a 'E' clip in a groove cut in the new location will correct that. A ‘E’ clip in a groove is the factory method used to retain original TL front sprung center pin spring in the extractor rod along with a cupped collar between the “E” clip and the spring: .100” thick x .195” diameter, slightly cupped .010" deep on the spring side for the end of the spring to nest in. So retain and reuse it if you have it, on a replacement later style modified center pin. A simple washer of .100” thickness x .195” diameter will work just as well. The spring is tensioned between the back bored ledge in the extractor rod (see #3 above) and the “E” clip on the ctr pin.


TL extractor rod showing the integral collar, removable knob, and the ctr pin orientation. Notice the right end (rear) of pin is a larger diameter than the left end (front) of the pin. The tiny C clip on the center pin must be removed to remove/install the spring. There's also a .100” wide x .195” diameter spring retaining washer (which is missing in this 1st photo) that goes between the spring and the “E” clip. The gun will function w/o the washer or with a washer of the same size substituted:


Photo by Steelslaver


These are reproduced parts:


Photo by delta-419



Above: If the center pin is all you need for your TL, another alternative is having a new pin professionally machined to the above dimensions to put your TL extractor system back in business, and is not a complicated or an expensive proposition. I have names of some who reproduce these parts.


delta – 419 TL project thread:
Made Delta’s TL parts: I think that he would like the opportunity to do so. He has a shop ; ACCU-METAL, 3987 North " W" Street, Pensacola, FL 32505 and you can also reach him at Dan@Accu-Metal.com , his phone number is (850)912-4855. His name is Daniel Widmer. He has an impressive amount of equipment and skill. Dan's cell phone is (419)345-2990 . I find it best to reach him after 4pm weekdays at the shop. ~ $550.
Triple Lock Question ?

“Heat treating rods that small is a tricky deal.....They will bow on both ends to due north......
“If I were going to make one for myself....I would just torch harden the tip ends of the center pin, polish and draw back to a purty straw color for a longer service life than just annealed tool steel.”
keith44spl This thread is located at:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...-new-post.html

5. Extractor Star:

Even extractor stars can be interchangeable with any pre 1960 44 spl to the TL cyl with slight fitting: the key in the end of the cyl may be a bit high for the keyway in the outside of the new ext star shaft, and the re-drilling of the two alignment pin holes to the orientation of the TL cyl. Also drilling the ctr pin hole in the star to the TL ctr pin diameter is required. The star shaft lengths and right hand thread are the same (prior to c.1960 of course, when the thread was changed to left hand).

However, although the threads are the same, the thread cut depth in the later stars is very slightly less than the TL extractor rod threads, and some will not thread together. But you'll notice the later ext. rod will thread into the TL ext. star threads.

Therefore if the threads on the TL extractor rod will not thread into the later extractor star, the trick is to polish them to slightly reduce the thread points diameter. You can also soak the replacement star threads in acid or naval jelly to slightly etch and create a bit more tolerance. It's the same technique professionals use to sharpen dull files.

6. TL Extractor Rod & Knob:

The TL extractor rod is .260”-.265" in diameter, everything after is .245”-.250" so no real problem there. It will be just a slightly loose fit in the hole in the TL yoke. You need a rod with the ‘barrel’ style knob to fit in the TL barrel shroud. Any ~1928 thru WW II N frame rod will work from the .44 2nd Model, Model 1926 .44 (3rd Model), 38-44 Outdoorsman, 38-44 Heavy Duty. And even any post 1928 thru WW II K frame extractor rod can also be used with an extra collar spacer to lengthen it to the N frame length. These are preferred to turning down the ‘mushroom‘ knob which eliminates the knurling, and the authentic factory look.

However, any of the above rods including the 1917 and other mushroom rods can be modified with some machining to use and have a removable knob more authentic to the TL:
On a lathe ‘turn off’ the knob down to rod diameter whether you start with a ‘barrel’ or ‘mushroom’ knob
Back bore the front end of rod .820” x .195”
Thread inside of rod end to a length of .335”
Obtain another rod with ‘barrel’ knob, cut from it's rod leaving ~.335" length of rod attached and thread to match your threaded knob

7. Replace Entire Extractor Assembly:

Much simpler would be to use to use an entire 2nd Model or later model up to 1960 (for right hand thread) extractor assembly (even the cyl as noted above) with one of the rods above. The rear sprung center pin will work with the addition of a rear end sleeve (described above to properly fit the locking hole in the recoil shield).

The TL recoil shield left side lip, you'll notice, does not have a divot ramp in the lip. It doesn't require one because of TL’s front sprung ctr pin set up. But when using a later extractor rod assembly and/or cyl, with rear sprung ctr pin, we obviously do not want to modify the TL recoil shield lip (hoping of course some day, correct TL parts will become available)! So a little care in closing is needed with swapping to later extractor system.

So the question is which TL part(s) are missing or broken to determine which substitute parts to use for a temporary or permanent fix?
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Last edited by Hondo44; 03-21-2020 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:01 PM
Buick Buick is offline
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I need a trigger to complete mine. I believe someone tried to polish the trigger and it wont catch the single action notch on the hammer. Double action works fine.
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Old 03-21-2020, 07:34 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is online now
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Locating parts:

Ebay and Gunbroker auctions

George Dye
"Salt Lake Collectibles Co."
P.O. Box 57433, Salt Lake City, UT, 84157
phone 205.502.2026


Brownells: Gunsmithing supplies, equipment, gun parts, technical advice.
Mail Address: 200 South Front Street, Montezuma, IA 50171
Phone: 800-741-0015
Fax: 641-623-3896
Web Site: Brownells - Firearms, Reloading Supplies, Gunsmithing Tools, Gun Parts and Accessories

‘Guns & Gun Parts’ (Recommended by S&W)
(413) 732-9938
983 Westfield St
West Springfield MA 01089-3813
EMAIL: info@gunsnparts.com
Guns n Parts - New and Used Guns Bought and Sold. no parts list here.

"Aonepawninc" http://stores.ebay.com/aonepawninc
has a bunch of old S&W parts for sale. They are very customer oriented and have very reasonable prices. 1/10/16

Dave Bennett: Parts and guns from 1900 up to 1970's.
e-Mail: 22ammobox@pnpa.net
Web Site: www.22ammobox.com

Jack First: Large selection of Pre- and Post-WWII parts.
Phone: 605-343-9544
Reproduced firing pins for 22/32 Kit Gun and HFT

Gun Parts Corp: Successor to Numrich Arms; many guns parts.
226 Williams Lane, West Hurley, NY 12491
Phone: 845-679-2417
e-Mail: info@gunpartscorp.com
Web Site: Gun Parts & Firearm Accessories | Numrich Gun Parts

Jim Horvath: Many parts for all S&W's (large and small) from 1860 up;
can reproduce parts.
e-Mail: driftdive56@aol.com

Jeff Lee: Lee's Gun Parts (an extensive supply of gun parts, including S&W)Mike who works for Lee has 45 M25 barrels.
(Open to the public on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays).
3401 W. Pioneer, Suite 2, Irving, TX 75061
Phone: 972-790-0773
http://www.leesgunparts.com/

Jan Matlega: Parts for Pre-WWII S&W hand-ejectors.
Mail Address: 528 Eddy Glover
New Britain, CT 06053
Phone: 860-229-6872

Poppert's Gun Parts: http://www.poppertsgunparts.com/
P.O. Box 413
Glenside, PA 19038
Tel: 215-887-2391 Fax: 215-887-5816
Email: sales@poppertsgunparts.com

Phil Saccacio: Phone: 540-456-6405
e-Mail: blueridgecollectibles@worldnet.att.com

Dave Szilagy: Manufactures parts for older S&W's.
Mail Address: 3107 Electric, Lincoln Park, MI 48146
e-Mail: shalgs@mi-web.com

Mike Veilleux: Guns and Gun Parts
All Parts inc. for Pre- and Post-WWII S&W's.
Phone: 413-732-9938
e-Mail: gunsnparts@aol.com
Web Site: www.gunsnparts.com

S&W Parts; antique and new
jhrogers@sprintmail.com
Ph: 352 394-7412

"Schludershots"
https://www.schludershots.com/gun-pa...gun-parts.html

Everygunpart.com - Parts Kits
https://everygunpart.com/
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Old 03-22-2020, 11:17 AM
BidderRV BidderRV is offline
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Thank you so much for the extremely detailed information. I am going to print it off and decipher every detail and search out any parts that I need and make this thing work. I may have additional questions as I proceed but I am fairly confident that the information you have provided will get the old rascal up and running. The only thing missing that I can determine at this point is the original extractor rod and knurled cap. I am currently in the process of a complete frame off cleaning and inspecting and measuring all of the existing parts for any tolerance issues.
Thank you again,
I feel better already
RV
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