What is the finish on this 1905 Military & Police?

[ConfidentRoad4]

This gun has been in the family since the 1940's. My father-in-law first saw the gun in 1968 and it had this finish at that time. The serial number dates it to 1905. It was used as an "under the bar" gun for the family's drinking establishment in St. Louis, MO. The hammer was filed off for making it easier to draw.

Also, there is some copper finish visible under the current finish -- but there isn't any nickel on the gun. The serial number puts it in the 1904 year, but the grip is consistent with a 1905.


What type of finish is this? Thanks!

[gmborkovic]

Hello and welcome to the Forum. Looks like a target model.
Well worn grips and finish. Can you post some more pics, especially the butt with Sn.? Mike

[P.W.Herman]

Looks like a home made brown job. Nice gun actually.

[ConfidentRoad4]

Here are some more pictures. I don't have the serial; will have to post that later. Thanks!

[opoefc]

I recall reading years ago in the S&W archives about some guns being copper plated . Probably for expiremental or trial purposes. I don't recall which models, but since the M&Ps were their staple, I would assume those were the guns. Ed

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum.

Look at the underside of the barrel. The serial number stamped there should match the SN stamped on the butt. If there is a "B" in front of the barrel number, it would have been shipped from the factory with a blued finish. The lack of the "B" usually indicates it shipped with a nickel finish.

[Waveski]

Very distinctive and attractive.

[Mbrgr1]

I think it is just brown patina typical of worn finishes.



Must have been a very long bar to need a target gun!

[Walter Rego]

Looks like brown patina with some verdigris highlights from being stored in a holster.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by opoefc

I recall reading years ago in the S&W archives about some guns being copper plated . Probably for expiremental or trial purposes. I don't recall which models, but since the M&Ps were their staple, I would assume those were the guns. Ed

Do you remember when?
This gun was almost certainly made in 1905. Note that it is a square butt, but does not have a trigger guard screw or rebound slide.

[ConfidentRoad4]

Some of you asked for a picture of the frame without the grip, so here you go!

The serial number is 62252. My FIL will be requesting a history report from S&W, but apparently they halted that service until the 24th of this month. It will be interesting to see the condition from the factory.

As other posters have mentioned, there is no "B" in front of the serial number, so one could assume this was originally nickel -- or was there some other finish that they were experimenting with?

Is this a "browning" finish?

[Truckman]

The S/N puts the production date in late 1904......Ben

[handejector]

Originally Posted by ConfidentRoad4

As other posters have mentioned, there is no "B" in front of the serial number,

That B would be on the bottom of the barrel. Can you show a pic of it, please?


I keep looking at those pics, and that finish does look like something applied to the gun, and it does have a color similar to patina on copper.
Very interesting.

[Truckman]

Originally Posted by handejector

I keep looking at those pics, and that finish does look like something applied to the gun, and it does have a color similar to patina on copper.
Very interesting.

I wonder what effect a cotton ball and Brasso would have on an area such as the flats of the grip frame which are not seen with the grips on......Ben

[ConfidentRoad4]

Here are pictures of the bottom of the barrel... no numbers. Is that unusual?

[wheelgun610]

The numbers on the bottom of the barrel are only visible with the cylinder opened. That number, as well as the number on the rear face of the cylinder should be the same as the number on the butt of the grip.

Mark

[raljr1]

You guys dont think that maybe living under the bar for decades turned the blue to brown. Think cleaning chemicals and moisture And maybe smoke? I guess the grip frame mightn't be affected by that....unusual for sure.

Robert

[ConfidentRoad4]

So I talked to my FIL and he just checked it with the cylinder open and in fact it does have a B in front of the same serial number (B62252), and these match the cylinder and grip.

So it was originally blued from factory, but it looks like there is copper verdigris (learned that word from Walter Rego- thanks).

???

[Absalom]

Standard blue does turn to brown patina, but this brown is indeed much too uniform in appearance to just be natural discoloration. Just look at the stark contrast to the ejector knob and the front face of the cylinder in this picture:

[wheelgun610]

What I'm seeing finish-wise appears to be just the patina from all the years it was stowed away under the bar and not meticulously cleaned and maintained. I've got an old Winchester Model 74 that looked about like that when I got it about 35 years ago, and I've seen many other guns with that same appearance over the years. I wouldn't even worry about it. It (presumably) got that way from all the years of doing honest work.

Mark

[rct269]

The finish is known as funky old gun---or victim of its environment. I have my F-I-L's 1905, bought new in 1920, and carried in the hip pocket of his overalls for 50-60 years. The cylinder and barrel are blue----no wear, no damage to speak of. The frame looks for all the world like a blue/gray/brown speckled case hardened mess, and the grip frame is a victim of acid hands----no finish. I have no idea how the frame came to be what it is, and the cylinder and barrel did not. It all lived in the same place at the same time.

Ralph Tremaine

[alwslate]

Looks to me like someone might have put a coat of varnish on it to protect the steel from rusting that has sort of yellowed over the years.

[H Richard]

I'm thinking 50-60 years of nicotine, cooking grease smoke, etc. But it does appear pretty evenly applied so maybe shellac or varnish?

[glowe]

The gun is quite worn, with the checkering loss on the stocks and the large logo worn by at least half. The face of the cylinder looks like it has deep bluing, maybe protected, or oiled in the old days. I have rust browned muzzle loaders I have built, and the first few coats of browning (rusting) produce a light brown with red tint similar to these pictures, but not sure why such a finish would have been applied?

I once bought a Model 3 that was said to have been hung on a wall in an old bar for decades and there was so much nicotine and tar on it, it was red. Also looked like it was varnished, but acetone quickly removed the residue to find a brown gun with little finish left. I note that bare metal shows where such a revolver would have laid and moved on a shelf for decades, the tip of the barrel and the front of the cylinder, show obvious signs of having been slid around on a hard surface for many years.

Lastly, the knob is still in its original case colored finish, which is odd, considering that any attempts at refinishing decades ago would not have left the knob original and refinish everything else right down to the screws?? I vote for a wash-down with acetone.

[SS336]

Cool old revolver with family history.
I think this is some kind of finish application. The role stamps are filled in a little. See side plate. Not sharp and clean. The side plate screws, as well as the ejector knob and some areas under the grips are still blue. The trigger is brown, but the hammer is not.
I don’t know what it is. Might never know. But very unusual and different. A coating of nicotine? 😁 who knows.
The answer is lost in time, but a very interesting old revolver that should be taken care of and enjoyed just for the history.

[s&wchad]

Originally Posted by ConfidentRoad4

Here are pictures of the bottom of the barrel... no numbers. Is that unusual?

The “B” and the serial number will be on the barrel flat, over the ejector rod. Swing the cylinder open and post a photo of it.

[glowe]

Originally Posted by handejector

Do you remember when?
This gun was almost certainly made in 1905. Note that it is a square butt, but does not have a trigger guard screw or rebound slide.

Everyone has their opinions on this issue, but it is a 4 screw revolver with a square butt, so almost had to have been built in 1905, shipped maybe as late as 1906. Whether is a square butt 1902 or a 4 screw 1905 is up for eternal debate. Serial number of OP's gun falls near the end of the 1902, 1st Change (sn 62,449).

For the OP, about all we know of the company's preferences for naming these models is found in catalogs of the era. Starting with the 1905 S&W catalog, all round butts were named Model 1902 and all square butts were named Model 1905. Those names appear in every pre-WWI catalog. In the 1919 catalog, names were changed to Military & Police, Round or Square butt, dropping the Model year designation.

[mikepriwer]

I have a 1910-shipped square butt that had spent many years hanging over a fireplace. It was brownish in color, and Dave Chicoine told me that the color was the effect of the creosote from the fireplace. He soaked in something that neutralized the creosote, and then maybe he cleaned it up a bit.

I think your gun will clean up, with some elbow grease and some cleaning products that will not damage or remove the underlying finish. There are lots of good metal cleaners that will work wonders on the gun.

The gun is an (early) 4-screw model of 1905, made in the shared serial number range of 58000 to 62450; this range of serial numbers contains both 1902's (round butt) and 1905's (square butt).

As an aside, I'm from St Louis, and and wondering what the name of the bar was, and where was it located.

Mike Priwer

[Waveski]

2 points:
- If the copper looking appearance were the result of long term exposure to some contaminant such as nicotine, it would be so prominent under the grip panels as it is.
- If that revolver belonged to me (I know-not my gun…) I would be in no hurry to remove that “finish” , whatever it is.
Wat too cool as is. AND -it has all us smart guys guessing.

[hkcavalier]

Everything points to an applied finish: the end of the ejector rod, the sideplate screws don't have it. It's under the grips, another dead giveaway.

It seems way too bright/light colored for that old gun patina. Could just be the pics too.

I don't have any experience in it, but I know jewelers that have really extensive test kits for different metals/materials. You could try that...just call ahead of time before you whip out a gun in their shop

[ConfidentRoad4]

Here's a picture of the barrel serial number along with that "B". Neither of us realized it was there -- thank you for the information!

I sincerely appreciate all the feedback from you guys!

[handejector]

What time does the bar open?


I find the OP's gun intriguing. You guys know me, so you probably know I'm an Occam's Razor kinda guy- "The simplest explanation is usually correct".
So, normally, I would be saying "Yeah, that's patina on an old blue gun" OR "Yeah, that old gun has been varnished or shellaced" OR "Yeah, that is years of nicotine and tar buildup".

BUT, I keep looking at the pics and seeing stuff that indicates some kind of applied finish- like plating of some kind.

Originally Posted by ConfidentRoad4

So I talked to my FIL and he just checked it with the cylinder open and in fact it does have a B in front of the same serial number (B62252), and these match the cylinder and grip.

So it was originally blued from factory, but it looks like there is copper verdigris (learned that word from Walter Rego- thanks).

???

It has been said that occasionally a blue gun was pulled from inventory and nickeled to fill an order. I think it is far more likely that a note was simply sent to the polishing department to pull a gun slated to be blued BEFORE it was blued and send it to the plating department.

Here is a nickel gun that I have which is marked with the B. Note that this gun shipped in the same era that yours did---









It was probably a special order since Roy says "This was a single {gun} shipment to Montgomery Wards which is unusual."

So, maybe your gun shipped blued, but there is a slight possibility it did not.
So what is on this gun? I honestly don't know, but I can make a case that it is not varnish, or nicotine/tar, or just patina on the steel.

Look at these pics:

If it is nicotine/tar/smoke, how did it get under the grips in such an even coating? If it is patina on steel, why is there no rust/pitting under the grips? You can even see the coating going up into the action, and the grip pin is coated----




Look at these areas. They look like typical bubbling and flaking we sometimes see on a nickel gun:















Now look at the pitting on the cylinder flutes. Notice how clean the pits are, and how white the bare spots are. Could it be that this is a nickel gun that has been dipped in a strong chemical cleaner and/or acidic cleaner that discolored the nickel?





Maybe this was a blue gun that got nickeled later, and dipped in a harsh bath years later to remove some rust.
Or is it plated with something else?
I know I've never seen another gun that was this color.

[Mbrgr1]

Too many years of this.

[gmborkovic]

I wonder what the charge holes and bore look like?
In my circle of old collectors, that gun truly has "character"!

[AlHunt]

It looks like simple gloss spray paint to me.

[KS_SW_guy]

Originally Posted by handejector

What time does the bar open?


Maybe this was a blue gun that got nickeled later, and dipped in a harsh bath years later to remove some rust.
Or is it plated with something else?
I know I've never seen another gun that was this color.

Now you are on to something. Note the cylinder nickel is still quite visible. My guess is being under the bar (damp environment) the blued finish failed. Maybe they sent the gun off locally to be nickeled, still many years later knowing it was a wet environment, paste wax or shellac was added to the non-working parts to prevent the nickel from failing, and it sort of worked. There was a product I used years ago on a rusty old muzzleloader called "Naval Jelly" it did remove rust but left a weird finish like this, also smelled for years. If it were mine, I would be very tempted to use brasso on a q-tip under the grips to see if the brown would come off and what lies below. My $0.02, YMMV.

[pwberndt]

Hi All,
I worked in a plating shop for a few years, many years ago and have plated many different items. The chrome process we used was to polish the underlying metal, flash a layer of copper, then a heavier layer of nickle. The nickle was thicker and allowed for color buffing out blemishes, it was also yellow in color. Chrome was then flashed over the nickle, giving it the traditional blue color. This looks like nickle with no chrome that has set without polishing for many years. Chrome is very thin and hard, when it peals, it is actually the nickle pealing. Someone may have put a layer of shellac over it. I'd leave it alone and enjoy the history and the story.
Paul, Ohio, USA

[BC38]

One additional aside to reinforce Lee's theory.
I have seen a kind of green verdigris on a nickel coin that was exposed to wet corrosive environments.
There is green stuff in the cylinder stop notches and sideplate screws (which are still shiny BTW).
The lack of case coloring on the hammer and trigger, the signs of peeling, and the washed out sideplate logo make me think it was a blued gun, refinished in nickel that has had some kind of "protective" chemical applied that yellowed and/or tarnished the nickel plating.

I'm betting a little Brasso, Mothers, or Mcguires would shine it right up. Only way to know would be to try a little on the side of the grip frame where it would be hidden by the grips. Maybe even on the inside surface of the grip frame.

[Notch8]

I saw a gun years ago that someone had cleaned with WD-40 and left it on untouched for years. That WD-40 hardened into a sort of shellac and turned brown, somewhat similar to the OP gun though not quite as dark. Just a thought.

[mfholmes]

I have an early S&W D/A that was copper washed and chrome plated after market. The chrome has worn off and now only has the old underlay of copper. Your revolver has a finish that is way too even for normal wear or aging. I would vote for the copper wash treatment.

[OLDFED]

Jamaican Bar Rum! Take a 12 oz. glass filled with rum, dip a bar rag in and rub on gun. Drink remaining rum. Do this every day for 100 years and get a brown gun.

[max503]

I vote that it's not copper. Copper turns green with age.

Lots of metal shops in St. Louis back in the day. My guess is someone plated it. They worked in a metal shop and threw it in with the pots and pans, or whatever else they were plating.

I powder coated a single shot shotgun barrel when I worked in a PC shop.

[jmpishnery]

I think what you are seeing is what is left of the original blue finish.

[nitrofix]

Try licking it. Maybe some Seagram's 7 spilled on it.

[C,Mudrock]

Originally Posted by raljr1

You guys dont think that maybe living under the bar for decades turned the blue to brown. Think cleaning chemicals and moisture And maybe smoke? I guess the grip frame mightn't be affected by that....unusual for sure.

Robert

Looks like some woodworking machinery I protected with WD-40
- Before I knew better (big mistake).

[Old_Cop]

I like it and the story. Leave it alone.

[Hondo44]

I'll say upfront I don't know what the finish is.

But after reading handejector's thorough analysis, and studying the photos, I believe it is plated probably with nickel or something akin to nickel. And either, most likely, the nickel bath was tinted with blue or some other close color that didn't work well. Or less likely, was put in a bluing tank after plating but didn't take well at all or didn't stand up to cleaning.

And the gun was shot a lot but the front of the cyl and barrel throat area were never cleaned. It would be interesting to see how well that area could be cleaned up with a good scrubbing. Maybe the same finish as the exterior of the gun would be revealed.

I think the extractor acorn knob is a new part replacement that is factory blued. Or the knob, not being plated, took the bluing very well in my 2nd scenario above.

Just my speculation that's no better than anyone else's.

[Cleandean]

I would vote for a bronze finish by electroplating. The turn ring has been filled in … and paint from a spray can would not hold up to that. So although it looks like metallic spray paint it is too even for that . Why bronze ? Maybe to match the other vintage hardware around the sink and beer tap system behind the bar.

While I owned my Tavern … I kept a SS . Mod 67 behind the bar . During most of my 14 years had that gun stashed where I could get it quick.

[Modified]

I'm not sure what it is but I'm pretty certain that color is the result of something someone was using to clean the gun.

My registered magnum doesn't have the same uniformity of that color, but it has had (I believe) the same stuff applied to it to make it go all olive green like that.

My Beater Registered Magnum - Done!

Bunch of picture in there.

I don't think I have any really good pictures though that adequately portray that green color like your gun. Also I don't know that my gun was ever nickel. I do know that over the years, after owning and handling a lot of "beaters", I came to realize that this green color was something that was done (probably accidently) to more guns then you might expect.

In the case of your gun, I might go so far as to say whatever this stuff is that got used on the gun borked part of the finish really good, and the owner just figured they would do it to the whole gun to make it uniform.

[mikepriwer]

I've red-outlined two areas on this gun, in the following image.



These outlined areas appear, to me, to have a greenish tint, or color. It looks like copper that has oxidized. Perhaps these areas were not protected, as the rest of the gun has some kind of shiny coating that is perhaps a protecting layer.

Regards, Mike Priwer