Colleagues--just received a nearly NIB pre-12. But when I wiped off the oil coating, the finish underneath was horribly streaked (see pic). Can the streaks be buffed out? Polished?

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That may have been what caused it!

Anodizing is 'growing' a honeycomb like layer, coloring and then sealing it.

Agree;someone tried to polish a finish that is not meant to be polished.

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John

Thanks for the confirmation--of truth I didn't want to hear...

I suppose you could try something 'very' lightly abrasive, like Renaissance Pre-Lim, and see if the swirl marks decrease.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

UPDATE--when I asked the seller to accept the gun back under GunsInternational's 3-day Inspection policy, here's what he said:

"How unfortunate. That was the nicest example id ever seen, of one of those revolvers. That is not an “anodized “ gun. The “heavy oil” you rubbed off is the factory black coating, a special paint they used on those aluminum guns. You stripped off the finish, and ruined a beautiful, collectible firearm."

That response doesn't ring true. I had no "black" color on the microfiber cloth I wiped on the greasy frame using first "RemOil" then synthetic-safe "Birchwood Casey Gun Scrubber". Would S&W use black paint to finish a firearm? Wasn't anodizing their method even in 1953 when this SN 232363 revolver was made?

I've asked S&W for their take, but I suspect their present Cust Svc folks know less about mfg practices 66 yrs ago than you guys do--esp Roy Jinks--if he's willing to weigh in.

Please advise.

Bad advice for an anodized finish, they cannot be polished without damaging the anodize. The base metal must be polished prior to anodizing. Attempts at polishing an anodized surface will just chip it away.

I have seen a similar problem before on an anodized part. If you want to you can take a cloth with a bit of isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol) above 90%. Lightly wet a SMALL portion where you see this pattern and let it dry. See if the color returns or if any of the black is transferred to the cloth and report back.

I have worked extensively with Anodized finishes during my career. Here is how they are produced. I do not know what process was used with the model 12

An electric potential is induced in the work piece and it is submerged in an acid bath. This grows a honeycomb like structure of Aluminum Oxide (Alumina), same chemical composition and properties as sapphire. The alumina layer is then dyed. The dyes will sit in the interior of these honeycomb structures. The alumina layer is then sealed with a dip in boiling water, which hydrates the openings of the honeycomb cells and effectively seals them off producing a very tough, chemical resistant, and scratch resistant coating. Anodize is impervious to organic solvents, oils, and alcohols. It takes strong acids or strong bases to attack it. An un-dyed anodize layer is transparent. Anodizing can only be applied to aluminum alloys.

What can occasionally happen with a poor anodize job, is you trap contaminants in the cells instead. You can test this with alcohols as they can penetrate into and evaporate out of a sealed anodize surface and dissolve the contaminants in temporarily changing how the surface looks. This will not affect the finish. Unfortunately I do not think this is the case here. No properly done anodize finish should ever look or feel "oily" or have its color just wipe off. Gun run your fingers across your AR15's receivers (if you have one) for a reference.

In your case though it looks like someone tried to polish the firearm, inevitably failed since anodizing cannot be polished, and attempted to cover it up. The orientation of the marks suggest a rotary polishing tool. If it is an anodized finish, more polishing will only damage the finish further. For a professional opinion I need the part in hand and more information on the process Smith and Wesson used and what alloy the model 12 frame is.

Dried isopropyl alcohol has no effect on the streaked surface--no color returns or is transferred to the cloth.

SCAM??--have I been deceived? Did S&W use black "paint" to finish aluminum surfaces in 1953 as the seller claims? "paint" that rubs off with common cleaners? or did S&W anodize the aluminum then as now? and are the streaked surface is the result of inappropriate polishing that the seller someone disguised with a good-looking cover-up to sell the gun?

If you get stuck with this, maybe you could send it out for cerakote?

That gun has an anodized finish. All the Airweights of that era did. NO- S&W did NOT use paint.
That damage looks like it was done by steel wool.

Post a link to the ad so we can see the pics he supplied.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Also- a microfiber cloth will NOT scratch an anodized gun like that unless you pour sand on it first.
Fine Scotchbrite pads are very well known to gun people now for removing scratches from stainless steel and "restoring" (actually, simulating) the factory brushed finish.
I could also believe some dummy thought a fine Scotchbrite pad would shine his Airweight.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

What recourse do you have through GI. Can any action be taken against the seller?

As another user pointed out, that is (was) an anodized surface.

Absolutely no way what you did when you received the firearm will at all harm the surface of that revovler. The seller is a liar.

If you did what you said in post #6 you have been had what ever you wiped off with gun oil, or Gun Scrubber wasn't anything S&W would have used. Anodizing is a reasonably durable firearm finish. Your gun looks like it has been scrubbed with steel wool, or Scotchbrite to me

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Randy

Doubtful.
When you're stuck, you remain stuck.
The seller put the problem on the buyer, and camouflaged the issue with an oil film.

I played with more than a few anodized parts in the gas meter industry. Most were from the 90's or newer but the finish stayed put with normal polishing tools. Abrasives and grinding wheels could make short work of it.

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Front sight and squeeze

The GI posting # was "101400385". Unfortunately for me the seller took down the pics as soon as he got my $. He is a "verified seller" on GI since 2010 with 477 listings.

Luckily I still have my complete trail of correspondence through the GI website.

I sent an e-mail to "[email protected]" asking for their help. I hope they can recover the listing. They open Monday AM...

My only dealings with anodized alum. was with car trim parts. I know for sure that chemtool spilled on it destroys the finish immediately and it can't be repaired.

I would suggest that Geezer contact the seller again and inform him that he has committed an act of Fraud and will face consequences for that if he does not immediately agree to take that weapon back, provide a refund prior to it being shipped, and pay for all shipping costs prior to it being shipped to the sellers FFL. Also tell him if he fails to do that he will see a review detailing his act of Fraud and Gunsinternational will be notified that you will be proceeding with filing Fraud charges with the Columbus PD. Also tell him because this is a Firearm the ATF may become involved and it will be extremely easy for the Columbus PD or the ATF to track him down.

Because this transaction actually was legally an act of Fraud. Which means that Geezer is legally entitled to file charges and morally obligated to pursue with charges.

I get nothing with that number. Can't you just give us a link or the seller's User Name?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Could you send me a link to that product please? I'm curious to see what is in it.

I suspect if you already completed the transfer that you may be stuck with the gun. If not and the seller refuses to take it back you may still have a long, hostile road to get your refund. It may be best to see if it is a good shooter if so. Sorry for your troubles.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

There's always Aluma-hyde.

BROWNELLS ALUMA-HYDE(R) II | Brownells

Our Forum will not allow the posting of hyperlinks or URLs.

I do not believe it is appropriate for me to name the seller when there is a slim possibility he got the gun with defects already disguised and did not try to wipe off the film to discover the streaks. All I need is a libel lawsuit vs. me!!

I'm hoping GI will give me good guidance in the AM.

Colleagues--I have never appreciated your support more...

Well stay on him Geez. Find it difficult to believe he didn’t know the condition of it being as many sales that you stated he had on GI.

We stand with you.

I'm sorry to hear about your problems with this Model 12, sir. I picked up my M12 off of GB last year for around $585. One of the listing photos below. By the way, I use Firefox and always do a 'Save Page as' before I ever bid on something on GB. I didn't think sellers were allowed to remove their photos. Doing a page save will enable you to keep a copy of entire ad with photos. Other than the haze scratches, it looks pretty good to me. If it is otherwise OK, then, if it were me, I'd put it up here on the Forum classifieds. Hoping you didn't pay a mint for it, my guess is it would sell for $150-ish less than you got into it. I would chalk up the $150 lost as a lesson learned and look for another. I have consigned more than a couple off of GB after I bought them - because I was bothered by the finish. Many folks could care less about the haze scratches and I bet it would sell. Just my 2¢ ...



By the way, just in case you didn't know, I have found the majority of sellers on GB to be disingenuous, at best. My M12 came in a correct M12 box, but the faker transcribed the serial number in the process. And, the box is for an older M12 as mine the newer 3-alpha serial number. Caveat emptor is an understatement when dealing with GB sellers.

Edited to add: I wholeheartedly stand by my comments and words of caution about GB. It’s ONLY a source of last resort for me - especially for revolvers. Prolly OK-ish for 3rd Gen’s that can have the finish touched up with bead blasting. But, there is no way I would buy an anodized S&W auto or revolver off of GB. Too many crooks out there.

Your experience hardly constitutes a majority. I have completed well over 250 transactions on gunbroker with only one major snafu from a seller (FFL) who didnt know a production number from a serial number. That is not to say that there are morons and ne'er-do-wells who conduct business on the site, but as a buyer or seller, you have to do your due diligence when transacting business anywhere.

Likewise, Ive never had a bad experience through gunbroker. I've got a lot of experience with auction sites from when I used to run a small internet business buying and selling collectible video games in high school. The devil is in the details and research and knowing what you are buying very well will make your life a lot smoother and help you avoid a lot of the pitfalls.

If it smells funny, don't eat it!

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I'm not familiar with the BC "Gun Scrubber" but wonder if that could be an issue:

Gun Care Guide | Birchwood Casey

Misspellings aside, they do have a few "do not use on" warnings for the stuff.

"GeoJelly" stated:

"By the way, just in case you didn't know, I have found the majority of sellers on GB to be disingenuous, at best. "

That statement is absurd. I have been a GB user for years and never been burned. If the "majority" of your transactions have been problematic I would suggest that there is something amiss with the manner in which you are interacting with sellers.

That is , if in fact you actually have had many bad transactions , as opposed to just sharing your unsubstantiated impressions...

Just a point of order. Geezer stated he made the purchase over Guns International not Gunbroker. I’ve made some purchases there. All went well

Contact information kid listed with the item for sale not just after purchase

Point taken.

My near-perfect, except for the faked box, M12 came from GB. I gave the seller five stars. I offered what I think was a possible course of action to the OP. Again, again, I urge caution when buying from GB if you are particular about the finish and mechanics of any firearm you buy. I have a sufficiently high IQ to understand that the bell curve situation applies to transactions from GB or eBay. Many folks are happy, some are thrilled, but many, myself included, have had less than satisfactory transactions. GB is my source of last resort. Rather than just running my mouth with nothing to back it up, I have spent the money over the years to contribute to this forum, then I can buy and sell here with a quality group of folks.

Pardon my ignorance, but I do not know how to access our Forum members' guns for sale. Please advise.

"I have a sufficiently high IQ to understand that the bell curve situation applies to transactions from GB or eBay...."

Well then , you adhere to your bell curve theory , and I'll continue with my satisfactory and successful use of Gunbroker as a firearm purchase source. I must accept the fact that my IQ is not high enough for me to understand how to apply the bell curve theory to my gun acquisitions , but I am comforted by the fact that my modest IQ is juuust high enough that I have somehow stumbled onto about 20 good buys in 3 years without getting burned.

We work with what we have.

Here you go - click on Forum toward the upper left of the home page, scroll down to find this link.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/guns-sale-trade/

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Thanks--bookmarked it !

Colleagues

Although GunsInternational considers my loosening of the front screw/removing the cylinder to get a focused photo of the streaked surface "disassembling the gun" and voiding their return warranty, the seller was convinced by my email quoting many of you (not by name) that I had not caused the streaking damage--and has accepted a return for refund pending his inspection!

I will update after I get his response.

Thanks--again--for all your support. You guys are great!

If you Disassembled the weapon as described I wouldn't take it back . I sold a 1876 Winchester DOM 1884, after a week the guy writes me complaining about the rifle, I Paid the 75.00 ship back to me and refunded his money MIND YOU Im not a FFL. a few days later I noted screws on the receiver were not right...as in turned...open up the inside, parts changed out. I SELL ALL WEAPONS AS IS WHERE IS. If you bought it with poor pics or didnt ask for more pics shame on you.

I am very glad to hear that things have turned in this direction. I managed to identify your seller from information in the posts above, and the more I researched him the more I couldn't understand why this firearms specialist, given his seeming skills, seriousness, and representation of high-end items, would engage in fraudulent activity that could destroy his reputation and his entire business if it were to become known. I tend to think that your suggestion above is probably correct -- that he got an oily gun, turned it around quickly without a close inspection, and never even realized that it had problems.

I admit that I am an incurable optimist and routinely expect other people to act to some degree in everyone's interest, not just their own. If this man reverses your purchase and perhaps even apologizes, I think that tells us what we would all like to know about anyone from whom we wished to buy an item of high quality at a commensurate price.

On the other hand, I am sometimes wrong in my judgments. If an Inner Jerk appears who continues to dispute your description of your experience with him, I will instantaneously add him to my Never-Buy-From list.

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David Wilson

Waveski - I am happy for you! You are my hero! I understand what you are saying. I understand that the OP didn't buy from GB. My last revolver from GB was near perfect. But, I will continue to be very wary of anything listed on GB - and I don't partake of any of the other selling sites. Did I mention, that the Model 12 seller tried to pull a slick one with a faked box label? Please sir, please continue to pick up as many firearms as you can from GB.

Mr Jelly ,

The floor is yours.

Just received this email from the seller:

"Package arrived today. Check should head out in this afternoon’s mail".

Assuming the check does not bounce, this case is closed satisfactorily, and I will not post about this case again.

I cannot thank you all enough for your wise counsel and expert advice. You make me proud to be your colleague!!!

Outstanding. Well deserved outcome.

Excellent news. I wish you luck in finding and acquiring the high quality specimen you had expected this one to be.

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David Wilson

Actually, I already have a mint pre-12 and a near mint 12-3 that I love because they fit my hand perfectly and weigh just 18 oz. But because I love light weight revolvers, I always wanted one with an aluminum cylinder--even though they're fragile.

So when one came on the market that also happened to be made in my birth year (1953)--I jumped! The asking price was high ($1,250) even though I got it for less ($1,100), but I was willing to pay a premium for the weight and date. That's why seeing the streaks after cleaning it up was such a disappointment...

For now, I am very happy to have my 2 steel cylinder versions--and to be getting my money back on the "streaker".