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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 04-14-2020, 02:27 PM
KneverKnew KneverKnew is offline
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Default Odd Model 1917 (no US Property mark)

In my never ending quest to get my hands on a nice (and hopefully original) model 1917 revolver, I have acquired this latest pistol at auction. Some may have seen it. Anyways the description said all matching numbers, which it does, and that it is in very good condition “As refinished.” It looks as if it has been reblued at some point best I can tell. But there is no US Property mark or flaming bomb stamp. Can someone help, and let me know exactly what I have and maybe a hint at what it’s worth so I can either feel better about myself or smash my head into the wall. Thanks.
CD961174-6725-4DBE-89C9-97C9A6938769.jpg
Bottom barrel serial number has a “B” prefix, if that helps.
Serial is 180412. So if this wasn’t a US issued pistol during the Great War, then when was it made and for what purpose?

36ED0B72-9D4B-41EC-B1BC-DE8E1F304952.jpg
67C1899E-E4C2-445F-BC27-870962DA7B51.jpg
CF556A43-B31B-439A-8B2F-20475FC135A4.jpg
D7044729-D0DE-4DA1-A592-AECA15118543.jpg
Grips are replacement bone handles but my other “beater” 1917 has a nice set of original smooth wood grips I may swap out. Also my beater has an original swivel ring. I may swap that over as well. My son is buying my beater and doesn’t care what grips it has. I’m slowly trying to teach him.

By the way, this pistol is dead on at 25 yards. That zombie lemon didn’t stand a chance.

Last edited by KneverKnew; 04-14-2020 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 04-14-2020, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KneverKnew View Post
. . . Can someone help, and let me know exactly what I have and maybe a hint at what it’s worth so I can either feel better about myself or smash my head into the wall.

Serial is 180412. So if this wasn’t a US issued pistol during the Great War, then when was it made and for what purpose?
You have a very nice Commercial Model 1917 shipped after WWI. I have s/n 179014 that shipped in 1927. Congratulations!

Russ
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Old 04-14-2020, 03:00 PM
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The Army contract 1917s ended with serial numbers in the low 170,000 range. There are some Commercial models below this SN but higher numbered ones should be civilian versions and have a small left frame logo not seen on military guns. Enjoy!
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Old 04-14-2020, 03:04 PM
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That is a beautiful commercial model 1917. I know you didn't ask, but I would leave those grips on it they are as beautiful as the gun.
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Old 04-14-2020, 03:08 PM
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I like it. Congrats even though it may not be exactly what you were after

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Old 04-14-2020, 03:25 PM
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I agree, keep the grips!
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Old 04-14-2020, 04:43 PM
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Wow! I appreciate the comments. So made some where around 1927 maybe. I really hoestly don’t have a problem with it being a commercial model 1917, assuming that is what they called it. As long as all numbers match and it is in good condition. I think this fits the bill. Now how about the blue finish. Does it look refinished to you? I’m thinking not. Auction description said “as refinished”. I guess I just don’t have the trained eye to tell. It just looks good to me.
Any helpful suggestions on its actual worth as is?
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Old 04-14-2020, 04:54 PM
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If it is refinished, it is a spectacular job. Do you seen any stampings on the left lower side of the grip frame like a R-B in a rectangle, or a month date code (three or four digits separated by a dot)? If you don't I'd vote original finish.

S & W never shipped guns in serial number order and this was particularly true with commercial 1917s. Close serial numbers may have shipped weeks to several years apart.

A letter of authenticity would give the exact ship (sales) date and destination if you are interested:

http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.com/swhf_letter.pdf

I would guess it to be worth in the high three figures. The original stocks were most likely the smaller service type, checkered, with rounded tops and no medallions (1920 decade) but the letter would tell.
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Old 04-14-2020, 05:01 PM
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So my original smooth wood 1917 grips would not be correct with this commercial 1917? Any idea if the. Inner oak models
Came with or without the bottom sling swivels? I was able to install one from my other 1917 beater. I thought it would be more
Correct to put those wood grips on but it’s sounding like not. So everyone likes the bone grips huh? Guess they will have to grow on me. Can someone point me to pictures of the correct grips that would ship with these commercial 1917’s. Thanks.
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Old 04-14-2020, 05:36 PM
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There is an G B but no triangle on right side grip and a WW on left side. Does this mean it was refinished by SW? How does this affect the price?
20DC6A56-2CF0-4314-911D-1448CBC9CC82.jpg
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Old 04-14-2020, 05:51 PM
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If thats a reblue i sure would like to have the artisans name and address
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Old 04-14-2020, 06:28 PM
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Again, in the absence of refinish stamps I vote original.
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Old 04-14-2020, 06:52 PM
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Commercial 1917s did come with the lanyard ring.

Here is one of mine.

Kevin
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Old 04-14-2020, 07:48 PM
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I know most everything with S&W is not written in stone. But, were there commercial 1917s before the 170,000 cut off. I have always figured my 1917 was a commercial gun. The serial number is 88,845 and it went back to S&W Oct. '42 for I believe a possible refinish. Unless Smith did a really excellent job grinding the US Property off of the barrel and repolishing it, it pretty much has to be a commercial gun, doesn't it. All the numbers match, non medallion checkered grips.
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Old 04-14-2020, 07:54 PM
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My commercial 1917, #180692, shipped in 1936. It must have been waaaaaaaaaaaay back in the vault.
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Old 04-14-2020, 08:06 PM
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Commercial 1917s did come with the lanyard ring.

Here is one of mine.

Kevin
Good cause I just put an original ring on mine.
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Old 04-14-2020, 08:10 PM
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Again, in the absence of refinish stamps I vote original.
Ok so based on the pictures I showed you under the grips with GB on one side and WW on the other, what are the if not rebuking marks? It would be great to know for sure.
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Old 04-14-2020, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by target tech View Post
I know most everything with S&W is not written in stone. But, were there commercial 1917s before the 170,000 cut off. I have always figured my 1917 was a commercial gun. The serial number is 88,845 and it went back to S&W Oct. '42 for I believe a possible refinish. Unless Smith did a really excellent job grinding the US Property off of the barrel and repolishing it, it pretty much has to be a commercial gun, doesn't it. All the numbers match, non medallion checkered grips.
My beater 1917 has US ARMY on bottom of grip. Serial is 45,444.
Barrel replaced with a Model 50 shiny barrel.
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Old 04-14-2020, 08:58 PM
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Ok so based on the pictures I showed you under the grips with GB on one side and WW on the other, what are the if not rebuking marks? It would be great to know for sure.
Assembler, fitter or inspector stamps. The Army contract guns had a small eagle with an inspector code (usually an S and one or two digits).
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Old 04-14-2020, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphydog View Post
If it is refinished, it is a spectacular job. Do you seen any stampings on the left lower side of the grip frame like a R-B in a rectangle, or a month date code (three or four digits separated by a dot)? If you don't I'd vote original finish.

S & W never shipped guns in serial number order and this was particularly true with commercial 1917s. Close serial numbers may have shipped weeks to several years apart.

A letter of authenticity would give the exact ship (sales) date and destination if you are interested:

http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.com/swhf_letter.pdf

I would guess it to be worth in the high three figures. The original stocks were most likely the smaller service type, checkered, with rounded tops and no medallions (1920 decade) but the letter would tell.
I don’t think I can afford $100 for a letter just now. So when you say original grips were round topped, checkered, you mean like this, but not smooth.
873233FF-C5DD-496E-8C25-FD761E170960.jpg
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Old 04-14-2020, 09:27 PM
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If I decide to look for the correct checkered round top 1920 style grips for this pistol, what do I search for? I assume this is N frame size? Is there a specific name to search for? Thanks to everyone with all you’ve shared.
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Old 04-14-2020, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KneverKnew View Post
If I decide to look for the correct checkered round top 1920 style grips for this pistol, what do I search for? I assume this is N frame size? Is there a specific name to search for? Thanks to everyone with all you’ve shared.
You need N frame service grips from the 1920s. Look at the photo in post #14. Those are correct, minus the grip adapter.
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Old 04-14-2020, 09:35 PM
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Very nice commercial model, if it had been back to the factory there would be a series of numbers representing the month and year the piece was worked on...4-66
As was mentioned with a piece that nice a letter would be the way to go, stay with stag...look sharp-shoot straight.
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Old 04-14-2020, 10:20 PM
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Very nice commercial model, if it had been back to the factory there would be a series of numbers representing the month and year the piece was worked on...4-66
As was mentioned with a piece that nice a letter would be the way to go, stay with stag...look sharp-shoot straight.
Well then, I’m going with the assumption this is original finish since there are no dates stamped under the grips. As far as the letter goes, I may wait a month or so to let the wife cool down. 😏
Then send off. I’ll post the finding once it arrives. Should I do it here or make a new thread?
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Old 04-15-2020, 01:03 AM
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One final test....Look at the small bevel on the front of the ejector rod, and at the ratchets on the rear of the ejector. If both areas are still "in the white" rather than showing signs of blue, then I would go with original finish.
Since the commercials are harder to find than the militarys, its a nice piece!
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:21 AM
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My 1917 Commercial is 184505. It has diamond checkered grips with large medallion. In the late 1920s S&W went back to grips with medallions. I have never lettered mine but estimate it was made in 1929. It has lanyard ring. Previous 1917 discussions on the forum give detailed information on the type grips on this model. Those made during the 1930s originally had medallion grips.
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Old 04-15-2020, 09:38 AM
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As a commercial version the grips work. Sharp looking old wheelgun, even with the refinish. I would leave it as it is and enjoy!!
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Old 04-15-2020, 11:03 AM
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One final test....Look at the small bevel on the front of the ejector rod, and at the ratchets on the rear of the ejector. If both areas are still "in the white" rather than showing signs of blue, then I would go with original finish.
Since the commercials are harder to find than the militarys, its a nice piece!
Well those spots definitely show bluing. I guess my original finish bubble just got burst. Oh well.
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Old 04-15-2020, 11:10 AM
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Can’t I just pretend someone put this pistol in a safe back in the 20’s and never used it much? So I can say it has original finish? ��
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Old 04-15-2020, 11:49 AM
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OP-
It is refinished. A nice job, possibly Factory. The Factory did not always mark refinished guns in later years.




Quote:
Originally Posted by target tech View Post
I know most everything with S&W is not written in stone. But, were there commercial 1917s before the 170,000 cut off. I have always figured my 1917 was a commercial gun. The serial number is 88,845 and it went back to S&W Oct. '42 for I believe a possible refinish. Unless Smith did a really excellent job grinding the US Property off of the barrel and repolishing it, it pretty much has to be a commercial gun, doesn't it. All the numbers match, non medallion checkered grips.
The barrel could be a replacement even if numbered to the gun.
What does the butt look like?
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Old 04-15-2020, 12:06 PM
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One of the factors that I look at when judging finish/refinish is the fit of the side plate. Too often, the plate is removed from the revolver and polished separately, which results in a gap between it and the frame. Whoever did your 1917 did a very good job.

Enjoy it until you find the original finish one that you really want, then pass it on.
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Old 04-15-2020, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
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OP-
It is refinished. A nice job, possibly Factory. The Factory did not always mark refinished guns in later years.





The barrel could be a replacement even if numbered to the gun.
What does the butt look like?
The barrel number has a B prefix. What significance is that?
Here’s the butt.
image.jpg
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Old 04-15-2020, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
One of the factors that I look at when judging finish/refinish is the fit of the side plate. Too often, the plate is removed from the revolver and polished separately, which results in a gap between it and the frame. Whoever did your 1917 did a very good job.

Enjoy it until you find the original finish one that you really want, then pass it on.
Side plate looks like a tight fit to me. There are little marks just behind the cylinder that has a small spot of rust but also are those possible cleaned up and reblued pitting spots?? They are small.
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Old 04-15-2020, 01:19 PM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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Originally Posted by KneverKnew View Post
The barrel number has a B prefix. What significance is that?
I think it means "blue."
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Old 04-15-2020, 01:25 PM
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I think it means "blue."
You are correct; it shipped with a blue finish.
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Old 04-15-2020, 01:27 PM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KneverKnew View Post
Side plate looks like a tight fit to me. There are little marks just behind the cylinder that has a small spot of rust but also are those possible cleaned up and reblued pitting spots?? They are small.
Attachment 444791
You can see the buffing marks on the side plate. You shouldn't see that on a original factory finish. Also, note the slight dishing on the side plate screws. These indicate a refinish and not from the factory.
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Old 04-15-2020, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
You can see the buffing marks on the side plate. You shouldn't see that on a original factory finish. Also, note the slight dishing on the side plate screws. These indicate a refinish and not from the factory.
Yes i do see those spots. Still, I think I got a very nice 1917 for what I paid. And it being a commercial model 1917 makes me feel even better, despite it being reblued. But boy does it look nice anyway!!

I’m sure the rebuking detracts from the value. Knowing this, what is the worth now? Still upper three digits?
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Old 04-15-2020, 04:09 PM
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rebukes? Thats funny, right there....
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:05 PM
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Upper three digits? Depends on how “upper”.

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Old 04-15-2020, 08:09 PM
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Along with the other info previously provided another hint that it has been refinished is the fact that the original profound color case hardening looks to no longer be present on your example's hammer and trigger. (Most likely it was buffed off during the refinish process.)

Here are a few color case hardening pics from one of my S&W M1917 examples.

Semper Fi,
Dale

Last edited by tenntex32; 04-15-2020 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphydog View Post
Again, in the absence of refinish stamps I vote original.
No way, no how. But I do like your optimism!

The rework/refinish date code would only be present if it was sent back to S&W for the work to be done.

Anybody could have reblued this example, and in my humble experience it does not fall in line with what I would expect to see in a S&W factory refinish,......even if refinished at a point in time when they did not stamp rework/refinish date codes.

That being said it is a very nice looking example as far as a refinish goes. I would want a lanyard ring, but that's just me being weird about 1917 things and such.

Dale

Last edited by tenntex32; 04-15-2020 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:34 PM
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Shouldn't the grips be like these (only for the N frame)?
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File Type: jpg IMG_0829.JPG (234.8 KB, 90 views)

Last edited by deyomatic; 04-15-2020 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 04-15-2020, 09:00 PM
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Pictured below are my two examples. Both have the serial number matching stocks which is SN's: 179459 & 180632.

I found an interesting comment on the internet by Mr. Corey Graff of "Gun Digest". It states "According to the Standard Catalog of Firearms, there were about 163,000 Hand Ejector Model produced for the Army between 1917 - 1919; 5,050 Target Model variations; 1,200 Commercial variations; and an additional 25,000 under Brazilian contract."

After the completion of the Army contract, the left over components were used in the production of the Commercial variation. My older of the two serial numbered revolvers even has the government inspector stamp on the yoke.


The Commercial variation is considered by collectors as harder to find due to the lower production number and is consider more valuable by price guides between the revolvers variations of equal condition.
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Old 04-15-2020, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deyomatic View Post
Shouldn't the grips be like these (only for the N frame)?
Service grips with large silver medallions were introduced in the late '20s, a bit later than the OP's revolver.
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Old 04-15-2020, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenntex32 View Post
I would want a lanyard ring, but that's just me being weird about 1917 things and such.
Dale
Already pulled ring from my ugly gun and put on this one. Much better.
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Old 04-16-2020, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by KneverKnew View Post
Yes i do see those spots. Still, I think I got a very nice 1917 for what I paid. And it being a commercial model 1917 makes me feel even better, despite it being reblued. But boy does it look nice anyway!!

I’m sure the rebuking detracts from the value. Knowing this, what is the worth now? Still upper three digits?
Since no one has answered the question of what is it worth now I will estimate. I have a refinished Commercial 1917 and it is all matching numbers with original grips. Tight and shoots fine. I paid way below what I feel it is worth at a local auction. Think the refinish kept bidding low. Yours might bring $700-$800 to the right buyer.
Just my opinion. Enjoy it.
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Old 04-16-2020, 10:14 AM
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Since no one has answered the question of what is it worth now I will estimate. I have a refinished Commercial 1917 and it is all matching numbers with original grips. Tight and shoots fine. I paid way below what I feel it is worth at a local auction. Think the refinish kept bidding low. Yours might bring $700-$800 to the right buyer.
Just my opinion. Enjoy it.
I do appreciate your opinion. That estimate makes me feel better. My winning bid was $475. The fee and shipping pushed it a bit higher but still well under that estimate. Not that I plan on selling this nice piece. Thanks again.

The icing on the cake is I sold my ugly gun for almost what I. I’d on this one. 😃

Last edited by KneverKnew; 04-16-2020 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:09 AM
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The old 35th Edition of the "Blue Book of Gun Values" has the following price guides for the Commercial variation as

100% $2.450
90% $1,665
80% $1,350
70% $1,105
60% $860

The above values are significantly higher than the Military variation.

The 35th Edition has a copyright of 2014.

It further stated the box was worth an additional $500.00.
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Old 04-16-2020, 11:15 AM
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At that price you did very well. Jealous here, since I have wanted one of those, refinished or not, and prices have been sky high. Enjoy.
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Old 04-16-2020, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamarw View Post
The old 35th Edition of the "Blue Book of Gun Values" has the following price guides for the Commercial variation as

100% $2.450
90% $1,665
80% $1,350
70% $1,105
60% $860

The above values are significantly higher than the Military variation.

The 35th Edition has a copyright of 2014.

It further stated the box was worth an additional $500.00.
Wow, those are higher than I’ve seen for the military variants!
So how does my refinished commercial rate in that list? How much does the refinishing drop it down in the list? Bottom? Still not bad in my book.
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