What should I expect to pay for a gun club gun? Found an old Smith at a local pawn shop. I don’t think they know what they have, but the price is almost double what it should be, IMHO. There’s a brief description in the SCSW, but nothing about prices. Thanks. Dave


* see post 26 *

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Illegitimi non carborundum

I found in our “downloads” section a list of the club guns. And it’s not on the list. Also, the SN is about 300 numbers higher than the number of club guns previously thought given out.

What to do? What to do? The numbers looked legit. It’s a 1920s or 30s gun. Hard to tell with that SN! Yuck yuck. Any thoughts you could share are much appreciated. Dave

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Illegitimi non carborundum

There is exactly one person who can answer this (and any other Club Gun) question, and that's Don Mundell (Club Gun Fan). The rest of us can give opinions. Some can give educated opinions.

I would expect to pay half again to double the price of a "standard" gun. I have had the opportunity to buy exactly ONE Club Gun in the last 60+ years----a zero numbered Club Gun. The real question is how long do you reckon it will be before you see your next one? (I didn't buy the gun I could have----been kicking myself ever since.)

If you're a numbers cruncher, these are the numbers: There are approximately 700 club guns spread over 70 years (starting at the turn of the century-----1899---thereabouts).

And up there where I was bemoaning not having a Club Gun, I had one----but I didn't know it until after it was gone. It was snapped up by Don Mundell, who told me he regarded it as a Club Gun---and if he regards it as a Club Gun, that's what it is.

Ralph Tremaine

We need alot more information to give you an answer. Model, finish, barrel length and any modifications if any. Some Club Guns wore Ropers. PM me the serial number.

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Don Mundell

Gun Club Gun ?? (what is it?)

If I recall my lessons from the master, club guns were typically guns made up from parts at the factory and donated to gun clubs as prizes for club shooting events. They were also given to VIP's that were favored by S&W. They were designated as "club guns" by being issued either a 0 serial number or a serial number beginning with 0.

I once owned a "0" prefix 1917 Army that was given to the head inspector for the Army stationed at the Springfield Armory who was in charge of overseeing their production at the factory. The gun is missing some of the typical 1917 stamping's to include the US Property mark IIRC.

It now resides where it should in the home of the "club guns".

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James Redfield
LM #497

My friend James is correct, to a point. The guns that had just a zero (0) are not Club Guns and should not be confused with them. The Zero numbered guns, and there were fifty or a little more were either owned, or given out by the Wessons. There are no records found for them. There are records on most of the Club Guns.

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Don Mundell

I had never seen a specific number relative to Club Guns, but 700 over 70 years beginning in 1899? That low, huh? Works out to, on average, 10 a year. I would hazard to guess the vast majority of these were produced the decade or two following 1899.

Nope, some years there were none. I don't know where the number 700 came from. Club guns went up to the 1970's. I posted a Model 41 Club gun just awhile ago. It shipped in June, 1976.

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Don Mundell

No problem----you still haven't seen a specific number relative to Club Guns. As clearly noted in my statement ("There are approximately 700 club guns spread over 70 years (starting at the turn of the century-----1899---thereabouts."), there are no specific numbers----only approximate. My use of the terms "approximately" and "thereabouts" was quite deliberate. The use of such weasel words is commonplace when when one doesn't have access to hard numbers---specific numbers, and/or when one is too lazy to look up what he does have. Both circumstances apply here. Had I been asked where the 700 came from, I'd have said Don told me. It's a good thing nobody asked me, because he's just said he didn't know where the number 700 came from. So the best I've got is somebody told me----somebody I don't remember. And the "1899---thereabouts" was a combination of me being too lazy to pull up the list to check, and my best recollection of the dates of the earliest entries. I guess I could have said there aren't very many Club guns, and they were produced over a fairly long period of time. Of course, if I'd done that, it's a lead pipe cinch someone would've asked how many and how long---as in "Damned if you do, and damned if you don't."

So-----anyhow-----------------

Ralph Tremaine

Don, Do 0 serial numbered guns have 0 on the cylinder and bbl?

If not what would someone look for to consider it likely original?

Well, I don't know how many club guns were produced but I have seen a lot of guns that looked like they were used as clubs. I guess cowboys didn't always carry a hammer.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Rich
Club Guns and Zero (0) guns most all of the time incorporated used parts.
There were exceptions. Here is 048. It was built for Charles Axtell World Class shooter. It was given to him, along with two other 38 M&P's, just before the 1908 Olympics. Did he use this in the in the Olympics? I don't know, but, I'd like to think he did. It is made up of all new parts.
This 38 Safety Hammerless serial number 0, is made up of a mixture of parts.
Some of my 0 numbered guns do only have a 0 on all major parts.
I hope this helps.

Attached Images

	38 Safety Hammerless 3rd Model sn 0.jpg (30.8 KB, 206 views)
	Club Gun 048 2.jpg (89.7 KB, 214 views)

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Don Mundell

Bumping to the top to see if you bought it.

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Don Mundell

As said above- there's Club guns & there's Zero prefix guns. S&W Trivia: For Victory model collectors , there are no "Club guns" but there were at least 4 "Zero" guns, which are (1) V-0202080, a 4" .38 Spl for C.D.Hadley in 1949, (2) V-0467090, a 4" 38 Spl in the old S&W Showcase factory collection in 1943 - probably at the Springfield Historical museum now, (3) V-0469511, a BSR 38-100 , 5 in Bbl, in 1943, for the War Dept in 1943, and (4) V-0469656, a BSR 38-100, 5 in Bbl, in 1943, for Lt.Col. Jarret. I'm unaware of any of the Zero Victories being in a collector's possession. Ed

I'm still not sure what the 0 prefix non-club guns are, but I have had one and am awaiting a second. The first, if I recall correctly, was a model 1891 revolver #026xxx and the second, which will show up someday, is an M&P #020xxx. Eventually, I will be posting pics and letter on the latter.

Bob

Ed, There are more 0 Victories then these.

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Don Mundell

Don, since you resurrected this thread, could you comment on the following thread?

2 Serial #s On 1917 Cylinder

It appears that the cylinder might be one of those used parts guns, since it has two serial numbers, one being a "zero" number??

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Don, Yes, "Wait, there's more ! " ....As my post said ..." at least 4 Zero guns...." regarding Victory models. When you publish your book, be sure to list all of them ! Thanks, Ed

Sorry, what exactly is a "club gun?"

See post #6 above.

Don, do you have a list of the known club guns?

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Kevin
Yes, I started a database.

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Don Mundell

Don, Ed, et all

Here is the factory letter on my Victory zero revolver.





Regards, Mike Priwer

Interesting, Mike. I have a letter somewhere in my files from the President of Remington to Carl Hellstrom @ S&W complaining about what a cheapskate McGivern was, because he ordered lots of ammo from Remington and never paid for it. Ed

Ed

If you can find that letter, I'd love to have a copy of it! It would go well with the gun and the letter I have.

This reminds me of an exchange of letters I have, between McGivern and Doug Wesson, regarding his book 'Fast & Fancy Shooting'. Apparently he asked Wesson to find a publisher for the book, and to make arrangements to have it published. Wesson did that, fully expecting McGivern to pay for it. Of course, that is not what McGivern expected, and repeatedly pointed out to Wesson that the book was mostly about Smith & Wesson guns, and would be great advertising for the company. Reluctantly, Doug Wesson did get it paid for, but was not happy about that. Realistically, McGivern didn't have the money anyway.

Regards, Mike

After communicating with gun club fan, I re-examined the gun. A lanyard ring was installed, post-factory, that very neatly eliminated the first number of the serial number. No gun club, no great find. Shoulda posted my ignorance earlier. But wow, I was thrilled when I thought I had a cool find. Dave

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Illegitimi non carborundum

Don

Regarding 048 that went to Charles Axtell, do you really think that he would have used it in Olympic competition? I would expect that those guns would have adjustable sights.

In looking at the picture of 048, the surface looks pretty rough. Do you have any idea what might have happened to it? The guns of most shooters are typically in better condition.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike
Who knows where it went after he passed. As far as using it in the Olympics, I can dream can't I?

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Don Mundell

Of course !!

Regards, Mike