Modified 1917

BC38 · #1 05-08-2020, 04:34 PM

I was looking at one today that I'm seriously considering.

The barrel has been shortened to 4-1/4", recrowned, and a new sight silver-soldered on. Looks to be pretty well done. Lockup and action are good, as are the bore and chambers.

Probably refinished at the time the barrel was cut, because there is a hint of of very slight pitting under the bluing on the left side, and the hammer and trigger have been polished - no case colors left. Slightly more sideplate gap than normal. Otherwise the rollmarks and finish all look pretty good.

It has all the patent rollmarks on the top of the barrel, not centered of course, and the sight base actually overlaps the rollmarks, due to the shortened barrel.

It has a Hogue monogrip on it, so I'd want to replace those since they are so ugly.

With a serial number of 183XXX and all the patent rollmarks on the top of the barrel, I'm assuming it is a commercial model, correct?

Pretty hard to pass on a good shooter like this one for under $400 OTD.

Loyaljeeper · #2 05-08-2020, 04:49 PM

For under $400 snatch it up.

BC38 · #3 05-08-2020, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loyaljeeper

For under $400 snatch it up.

Yeah, I've bought a lot of guns from the seller. I just got off the phone with him and he says he'll do $350 OTD.

He's putting it aside for me until Tuesday to give me the weekend to think about it.

younggun22 · #4 05-08-2020, 05:16 PM

Let’s see some pictures!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BC38 · #5 05-08-2020, 05:23 PM

Sorry, I didn't take any pictures. I already have an old shooter-grade 1917 commercial with the 6" barrel, so I was seriously thinking of just passing on this one.

But I got to thinking about it and pretty much came to the "any shooter N-frame is worth $500" conclusion.

I'm just a sucker for 4" N-frames...

Jack Flash · #6 05-08-2020, 06:57 PM

I learned a long time ago that I couldn't buy every good deal that I run across. Only you know if the purchase would fit your situation.

But it sure sounds like a good deal. If done right, it would be a very hansom and practical revolver in a caliber that starts with four. You could almost certainly get your money back out of it …

Hondo44 · #7 05-08-2020, 07:57 PM

My gun show rule #5 is never pass up a good deal on a decent gun: you can always resell a good deal and get your money or more out of it if you decide not to keep it!

The # is too high for a WWI military gun, and if it doesn't have these roll marks, it's a commercial:

Butt stamping:

Photo credit: lestert357

Under barrel stamping:

Photo credit: gjamison

Be sure to check for rechambering to 45 Colt if that matters to you.

BC38 · #8 05-08-2020, 09:41 PM

Good things to check Hondo44.

With the nasty Hogue monogrip on it checking the butt might be a little difficult pre-purchase, but I already checked under the barrel and there is no US property mark or any sign of the kind of grinding that would be necessary to remove it if it were ever there. That's another reason I concluded that it was a commercial model.

The old commercial model I already have has a 177XXX serial number so since this one is higher, that is further confirmation.

robertrwalsh · #9 05-09-2020, 02:12 AM

For that kind of money I would grab it if it looked 2/3 decent, and I don't even need one.

steelslaver · #10 05-09-2020, 06:25 AM

For that price you can't really go wrong on a shooter 45 acp with a 4" barrel. I also believe you can always get your money back if you tire of it

Pine_Worker · #11 05-09-2020, 11:30 AM

$400 for a shooter .45 a ACP, that’s a no brained.

BC38 · #12 05-12-2020, 08:38 PM

Went back and did the paperwork and put half down ($175) on it today.
Snapped a couple of quickie cell phone pics.
Gotta' ditch those ugly Hogues just as soon as I can get it out of BGC jail.

Pisgah · #13 05-12-2020, 08:43 PM

For $350, I'd get over the grips. I'd buy that one all day long...

BC38 · #14 05-12-2020, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pisgah

For $350, I'd get over the grips. I'd buy that one all day long...

Same here - especially since I have a spare pair or two of wood grips I can put on it.

Jack Flash · #15 05-12-2020, 09:35 PM

What I can see sure looks good, but unknown what the grips are covering up. If the rest of the gun is in the same condition as the "naked" parts, you really got a deal.

shell627 · #16 05-12-2020, 09:49 PM

I would buy that in a heartbeat!I love 45 acp revolvers and I have one modified 1917 That I truly love.

ParadiseRoad · #17 05-12-2020, 11:52 PM

...I'd buy it for $350...

...but the side plate fit and front site detract from the overall condition...

...still looks like a fun shooter though...

...looks like the frame says MADE IN USA so the frame is from 1922 or later...

Modified 1917-20200512_165030-1-jpg

BC38 · #18 05-13-2020, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadiseRoad

...I'd buy it for $350...

...but the side plate fit and front site detract from the overall condition...

...still looks like a fun shooter though...

...looks like the frame says MADE IN USA so the frame is from 1922 or later...

Modified 1917-20200512_165030-1-jpg

Yeah, no doubt about it being refinished. The front sight doesn't look anything like the original, but it seemed to be pretty well done. It is nothing more than a shooter for sure.
But a working N-frame in 45 ACP that is even cosmetically presentable for $350. I couldn't pass on that.

Hondo44 · #19 05-13-2020, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC38

Went back and did the paperwork and put half down ($175) on it today.
Snapped a couple of quickie cell phone pics.
Gotta' ditch those ugly Hogues just as soon as I can get it out of BGC jail.

Looks nice!! I see what you meant about the front sight! Yuk.

I had two shooters with violated front blades like that and couldn't stand them.

On the first one the barrel was also cut so no collectibility, but I still wanted the original sight. I found a front 1/2 of a .44 barrel with an original blade. Cut the base out of the barrel, curved the bottom and made it higher like the .45 needs by leaving a little extra under the base, un-soldered the goofy front sight, and soldered the new one on.

Another one with original barrel length and sight base also had a funky file job on the blade. I milled it off and milled a slot in the base just like the factory did for target models. They would pin in a target front blade.

But I made a proper 1/2 moon sight blade and pinned it in place. That's what I'd recommend for yours. You won't have to jeopardize the barrel blue by soldering a replacement base and blade on.

Just some ideas if it helps,

BC38 · #20 05-13-2020, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Looks nice!! I see what you meant about the front sight! Yuk.

I had two shooters with violated front blades like that and couldn't stand them.

On the first one the barrel was also cut so no collectibility, but I still wanted the original sight. I found a front 1/2 of a .44 barrel with an original blade. Cut the base out of the barrel, curved the bottom and made it higher like the .45 needs by leaving a little extra under the base, un-soldered the goofy front sight, and soldered the new one on.

Another one with original barrel length and sight base also had a funky file job on the blade. I milled it off and milled a slot in the base just like the factory did for target models. They would pin in a target front blade.

But I made a proper 1/2 moon sight blade and pinned it in place. That's what I'd recommend for yours. You won't have to jeopardize the barrel blue by soldering a replacement base and blade on.

Just some ideas if it helps,

The front sight doesn't look that bad to me. It isn't anything like the original, but it isn't that bad either. I've certainly seen a lot worse. If it shoots to point of aim, I probably won't do anything to it.
To each his own I guess.

StrawHat · #21 05-13-2020, 07:42 AM

Considering it is not a factory length barrel, I would not expect a factory front sight. To me, the front sight needs to help me hold on target, regardless of shape.

Here is a modified front sight on a 1950 Military Model that works pretty good for my eyes. Although I am considering adding a gold bead.

Kevin

Old_Cop · #22 05-13-2020, 08:14 AM

It's not perfect as noted, but I would give it a home.

Jack Flash · #23 05-13-2020, 11:19 AM

I would just leave the front sight as is unless the point of aim is really screwed up for your desired range. Even then, being the lazy type, I would probably say "Look, it shoots point of aim at SOME range.

ddixie884 · #24 05-13-2020, 04:02 PM

I like it, good shooter or night stand gun...............

S.B. · #25 05-14-2020, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC38

Yeah, no doubt about it being refinished. The front sight doesn't look anything like the original, but it seemed to be pretty well done. It is nothing more than a shooter for sure.
But a working N-frame in 45 ACP that is even cosmetically presentable for $350. I couldn't pass on that.

Well, you could always get yourself a felt fedora, whip(where legal to own), and of course a flapped holster and have an adventure while carrying this Indy gun? Congratulations, I'd have purchased this in a New York minute. Sorry, I just watched this series of movies again recently.
Steve

tommy F · #26 05-14-2020, 10:15 AM

Looks awesome

S.B. · #27 05-14-2020, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawHat

Considering it is not a factory length barrel, I would not expect a factory front sight. To me, the front sight needs to help me hold on target, regardless of shape.

Here is a modified front sight on a 1950 Military Model that works pretty good for my eyes. Although I am considering adding a gold bead.

Kevin

For the life of me, I've always wondered why an articulate pistolsmith couldn't just cut the barrel reshape the bottom and then silver solder the original front sight onto it in the new position? Maybe adding some height to compensate for the shortening? Of course the real issue here is the position of the lettering(patent dates ie.).
Steve

StrawHat · #28 05-14-2020, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.B.

For the life of me, I've always wondered why an articulate pistolsmith couldn't just cut the barrel reshape the bottom and then silver solder the original front sight onto it in the new position? Maybe adding some height to compensate for the shortening? Of course the real issue here is the position of the lettering(patent dates ie.).
Steve

It all comes down to $$$$. Cutting the barrel is simple. Taking the cut off piece and removing everything that isn’t front sight is a bit more difficult. Then milling it to approximate the original configuration is a bit more difficult.

Just $$$$

Kevin

Hondo44 · #29 05-15-2020, 12:14 AM

Steve and Kevin,

I agree with both of your statements. Milling machine work is nice, but the set-up takes the time, and as they say time is money. There were many years when I didn't have a milling mach. But my time is cheap, it's a hobby. I did many things by hand. Even now with a milling mach I still do small one off projects by hand. But it's the craftsman time instead of set-up time.

The sight/base comes out of the old cut off barrel quickly with a carbide cut off wheel leaving a 1/32"-3/64" border around the sight base. This retains the small factory radius surrounding the base that tapers to the barrel surface, so important for that factory look matching the original forged integral base with the barrel. The knife edge polish blended into the barrel also leaves a much larger "footprint" for a good solder connection.

The extra material underneath the sight base also comes out fairly quickly by drilling out the barrel bore before cutting the sight out of the barrel. Then it's just a matter of fine tuning the height.

I use an old barrel wrapped in 150 to 240 paper. Run the sight up and down the barrel which at the same time replicates the curvature underneath the sight base to match the outside barrel radius perfectly. Leave the surface coarse from the sandpaper grit for a good solder joint adherence.

StrawHat · #30 05-15-2020, 06:17 AM

Not many gunsmiths had electric milling machines until maybe the late 20th century. We all had portable hand held ones aka files.

Kevin

steelslaver · #31 05-15-2020, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.B.

Well, you could always get yourself a felt fedora, whip(where legal to own), and of course a flapped holster and have an adventure while carrying this Indy gun? Congratulations, I'd have purchased this in a New York minute. Sorry, I just watched this series of movies again recently.
Steve

Just curious. Is there really locations where a whip is illegal. I am such a hick from the sticks on a lot of laws. Its like pocket knives. I remember being shocked to find out that some cities did allow a simple pocket knife.

nbedford · #32 05-15-2020, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelslaver

Just curious. Is there really locations where a whip is illegal. I am such a hick from the sticks on a lot of laws. Its like pocket knives. I remember being shocked to find out that some cities did allow a simple pocket knife.

Really, where at? Never heard of such, but if I do go anywhere, it's mostly Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and Oklahoma. I've been carrying a 3" A.G. Russell lockblade forever.

Hondo44 · #33 05-15-2020, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.B.

Of course the real issue here is the position of the lettering(patent dates ie.).
Steve

Steve,

I forgot, I meant to comment on the barrel lines of patent dates because you bring up a good issue to do with barrel shortening and sight remounting.

Patent date lines that run up under the front sight are as obvious as a **** in the punch bowl. I'm not saying that I'm trying to fool someone into thinking the barrel isn't modified. But if the front end of the patent date lines are shortened/sanded off short and "feathered" into the remaining text of the front end/rear end of the sight base, at a natural break point in the text, i.e., between two words for example, it's much less weird looking or as obvious to the most casual observer.

For a severely shortened barrel all date lines can be removed. However, the last date at the rear of the bottom line is often the only important one to reference so I try to leave at least that much intact.

StrawHat · #34 05-16-2020, 06:06 AM

This front sight is well done, not perfect but well done. It is on my old EDC.

Kevin

Hondo44 · #35 05-16-2020, 07:44 AM

That's a very professional custom sight, apparently a modification of the original 1/2 moon sight. The radiused joint of base to barrel gives it a factory look and is very well done.

The bead is perfect for the early rear U notch of pre ~1926 vintage. And serrations of the rear edge are well done. Clearly it's had years of wear and usual dings but the craftsmanship shows thru.

S.B. · #36 05-16-2020, 08:33 AM

I agree very nice looking pistol and work! My compliments and congratulations, sir.!

StrawHat · #37 05-16-2020, 11:16 AM

That old 4” is still one of my favorites.

Kevin

Kinman · #38 05-16-2020, 02:52 PM

I had a triple lock that someone had butchered the front sight in a similar manner, to each his own is about all I could say about it. It didn't help me shoot the piece any better than an original would but must have suited its previous owner or whoever did the deed. I thought I could get over the transgression but eventually sold or traded it off, I guess I wasn't "big" enough to see past it. Stuff like that can get to you if your picky, I've gone out of my way to correct misdeeds done by others. This time there wasn't much I could do, I talked to an accomplished gunsmith who claimed that he could tig weld it back to proper proportion, reblue to match and according to him only he and I would be the wiser. As long as I knew it was altered that would be enough to turn me off, I traded it or sold it.

Hondo44 · #39 05-16-2020, 04:45 PM

That can truly be a flawless repair. However, it the blue finish is original, having to re-blue it is the deal killer!!

BC38 · #40 05-27-2020, 12:32 AM

I got to bring it home today, and pulled that ugly Hogue monogrip off.

Some minor putting under the grips on the rebated portion of the grip frame. Looks like whoever did the reblue didn't bother sanding down the pits if they were covered by the grips. No big deal, they aren't rusty, so they are old news.

Guess what else I found under that big slab of rubber covering up most of the sideplate?

The 1937 Brazilian Crest! So I guess that means this frame sat around in S&W's inventory for a while before it got assembled into a working gun for export?

Being a Brazilian also explains the light pitting and refinish. From what I've read most of them saw some pretty hard use south of the equator.

I put a much newer set of non-diamond magna stocks I had lying around on it and it looks SOOOO much better.

Hondo44 · #41 05-27-2020, 02:02 AM

I believe those saw action in the European Theater of WWII hostilities in Italy.

S.B. · #42 05-27-2020, 07:58 AM

The Brazilian crest is awful faint on mine? Even before I had it refinished. Looks to be struck lightly?
Steve

BC38 · #43 05-27-2020, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.B.

The Brazilian crest is awful faint on mine? Even before I had it refinished. Looks to be struck lightly?
Steve

Yeah, mine too. Probably has something to do with it being such a large and detailed stamping. It would take a lot of force to make it deep.

S.B. · #44 05-27-2020, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC38

Yeah, mine too. Probably has something to do with it being such a large and detailed stamping. It would take a lot of force to make it deep.

I suppose, the rest of the markings are all very sharp and clear and took lacquer stick marking readily?
Steve

BC38 · #45 05-27-2020, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.B.

I suppose, the rest of the markings are all very sharp and clear and took lacquer stick marking readily?
Steve

Not familiar with "lacquer stick marking", but the rest of the rollmarks are pretty good - a little "buffed", but way better than a lot I've seen.

Jack Flash · #46 05-27-2020, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

I believe those so action in the European Theater of WWII hostilities in Italy.

The 183xxx serial number falls in the range of the First Group of Brazilians that shipped circa 1937. So it almost certainly went along with the Brazilian Expeditionary Force to Italy as part of the Allied effort in WWII.

CapnB · #47 05-27-2020, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Flash

The 183xxx serial number falls in the range of the First Group of Brazilians that shipped circa 1937. So it almost certainly went along with the Brazilian Expeditionary Force to Italy as part of the Allied effort in WWII.

Prior to their entry in the war, the Brazilian Expeditionary Force trained with obsolete French weaponry. They deployed to Italy without their ordnance and were initially equipped with ‘03 Springfields and later M1’s. I’m thinking that with the possible exception of some officers, not many of the 1937’s actually saw service in Europe. I’m probably wrong about that, but I seem to recall an informative post by a Brazilian forum member to that effect.
Good shootin’,
Doug

Pondoro · #48 05-27-2020, 08:53 PM

Does the Brazilian stamp have a Smoking Cobra? That would add a lot of cool factor. The Brazilian Expeditionary Force was called the Smoking Cobra's, their shoulder patch had a cobra smoking a pipe.

BC38 · #49 05-27-2020, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pondoro

Does the Brazilian stamp have a Smoking Cobra? That would add a lot of cool factor. The Brazilian Expeditionary Force was called the Smoking Cobra's, their shoulder patch had a cobra smoking a pipe.

No cobras or pipes. Just this Brazilian crest.
Its about the size of a nickel, and pretty detailed as you can see - lots of lines in that drawing.
As I said before, I suspect that is why the stamping is rather shallow on all of them. Pretty hard to impress something that large and intricate into carbon steel.

Jack Flash · #50 05-27-2020, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapnB

... I’m thinking that with the possible exception of some officers, not many of the 1937’s actually saw service in Europe. I’m probably wrong about that, but I seem to recall an informative post by a Brazilian forum member to that effect.
Good shootin’,
Doug

No, you are remembering it better than I did. Here is the post about the BEF in Italy.
S&W 1917: remembering the Brazilian Expeditionary Force