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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 05-10-2020, 04:52 PM
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The last of my "Grail Guns" was finally acquired. I had almost given up but finally won one on GB. A .455 Webley, plenty of cosmetic wear, but tight and a beautiful bore. Shipped in 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware.
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Old 05-10-2020, 05:43 PM
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Congratulations. Looks like it has lived a life. Well worn stocks and finish. Probably still shoots great. Midway has both ammo and brass for sale.

Be sure to get you information on Hondos thread about 455s
.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

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Old 05-10-2020, 06:00 PM
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Try the Mk1 brass. The cylinders are milled for the longer cartridge. Buffalo arms has the brass in stock
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Old 05-10-2020, 07:05 PM
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Great Catch!

Worn but amazingly original, and now I see the lanyard swivel.

A 1st Model TL with no Brit stamps: lived its entire life in the USA as a 'civilian'!
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Old 05-10-2020, 07:27 PM
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Very nice! Mine are great shooters. Yours will be too.
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Old 05-10-2020, 07:53 PM
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Nice revolver!

And I do see the lanyard ring peeking out in the first photo.

Grail Gun! Triple Lock!-tl1-jpg



I have one, a .455 also, that shipped in the same batch to Shapleigh Hdw. in December 1917 also.

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Old 05-10-2020, 07:59 PM
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Yup, it does have the lanyard. Starline brass is already on the way and dies are already in the toolhead for the Dillon.
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Old 05-10-2020, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
Try the Mk1 brass. The cylinders are milled for the longer cartridge. Buffalo arms has the brass in stock
I have a (plain old) HE in 455 also, use the MkII cartridge - that's .820 length, correct? I don't see the longer on their website.
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Old 05-10-2020, 09:18 PM
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Congratulations ! Maybe theres hope for me yet .
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Old 05-10-2020, 09:54 PM
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Yup, it does have the lanyard. Starline brass is already on the way and dies are already in the toolhead for the Dillon.
I usually go to Penn Bullets for some of the oddball stuff. But their "about 255 grain" 45 caliber bullets all have too much lead below the crimp line for my taste. Not exactly a whole lot of space left in that stumply little case.

Western Bullets has a 455 Webley style bullet, although it's only 250 grains: NEI 250.454<br>.455 Webley

Too bad Starline's "45 Colt" cowboy brass has too thick a rim for the Webley. My S&W will accommodate a case length of just under 1", the Starline is .896 and would be nice to use were it not for the .060 thick rim. Just enough to not work in an unshaved Webley.
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Old 05-11-2020, 12:57 AM
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Too bad Starline's "45 Colt" cowboy brass has too thick a rim for the Webley. My S&W will accommodate a case length of just under 1", the Starline is .896 and would be nice to use were it not for the .060 thick rim. Just enough to not work in an unshaved Webley.
The easiest way to thin the rim is in a lathe by shaving .015" off the top side of the rim if you know someone who has a lathe.
But you can also chuck up cases in a drill press or power drill clamped in a vise, and use a file. The brass is soft and a sharp file zips off the .015" pretty fast.

Also one of the big brass companies offers Webley 455 MKI cases which of course the S&W cyl is chambered for. Even though they were to use 455 MKII ammo, the Brits specified the chambers be long enough for the MKI as a back up cartridge in an ammo shortage.
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Old 05-11-2020, 07:55 AM
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It's rather surprising that a .455 Webley would be shipped to St. Louis Mo. It would make a good back story if you could find out the person who purchased the TL.
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Old 05-11-2020, 09:39 AM
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It's rather surprising that a .455 Webley would be shipped to St. Louis Mo. It would make a good back story if you could find out the person who purchased the TL.
In December 1917 Shapleigh Hardware bought out the entire remaining stock of the S&W revolvers originally made in anticipation of Great Britain's war need. They were sold on the U.S. civilian market.

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Old 05-11-2020, 10:10 AM
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I have a (plain old) HE in 455 also, use the MkII cartridge - that's .820 length, correct? I don't see the longer on their website.
Here you go. .455 Colt is the same as.455 Mk1> measure your chambers- bet they'll fit .890 brass.

Mk II works, but i've noticed the longer jump degrades accuracy.

455 Colt Cases∗ .890" - Reloadable Brass Cases & Hulls - Reloading Supplies - Buffalo Arms
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Old 05-11-2020, 10:10 AM
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In December 1917 Shapleigh Hardware bought out the entire remaining stock of the S&W revolvers originally made in anticipation of Great Britain's war need. They were sold on the U.S. civilian market.

Curl
Thanks I didn't know that. Shapleigh was a pretty big outfit in that time frame. Their old building still stands down on the riverfront to this day and it's pretty large building for the time.
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Old 05-11-2020, 10:54 AM
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S&W made many more 455s than needed for the British Common Wealth contract. Hundreds were sold to large retailers like Shapleigh Hardware in this country and Wilkinson Sword in England, and not ordered by specific customers. Many were purchased by US state militia 'Home Guards'.

However, prior to the WWI contract, several were ordered from S&W by specific customers. These were all 1st Model 44 Hand Ejector - Triple Locks; see this thread POST #233: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...ch-thread.html
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Old 05-11-2020, 12:36 PM
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Sent it to Ford's for a full restoration, and you will have a great revolver!
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Old 05-11-2020, 12:51 PM
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For those of us (me) not that familiar with the triple lock, here is a good video from Brownells.


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Old 05-11-2020, 09:05 PM
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S&W made many more 455s than needed for the British Common Wealth contract. Hundreds were sold to large retailers like Shapleigh Hardware in this country and Wilkinson Sword in England, and not ordered by specific customers. Many were purchased by US state militia 'Home Guards'.

However, prior to the WWI contract, several were ordered from S&W by specific customers. These were all 1st Model 44 Hand Ejector - Triple Locks; see this thread POST #233: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...ch-thread.html
I have one, didn't realize the back story until posted here for help -

S&amp;W in 455 Eley

BTW, re 45 Colt brass - I take it you'd recommend AGAINST shaving the cylinder to accommodate the thicker rim ....?

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Old 05-11-2020, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
Here you go. .455 Colt is the same as.455 Mk1> measure your chambers- bet they'll fit .890 brass.

Mk II works, but i've noticed the longer jump degrades accuracy.

455 Colt Cases∗ .890" - Reloadable Brass Cases & Hulls - Reloading Supplies - Buffalo Arms
Thanks - didn't think to do the "455 Colt" search.

The chamber on my HE will accommodate up to about 1.00" so the 455 Colt should work fine.
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Old 05-11-2020, 11:37 PM
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Wish that one could talk!! If you drink a secret amount of Knob Creek, it will!!
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Old 05-12-2020, 12:42 AM
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BTW, re 45 Colt brass - I take it you'd recommend AGAINST shaving the cylinder to accommodate the thicker rim ....?
I most definitely recommend AGAINST doing that.
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Old 05-12-2020, 10:28 AM
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I have one, didn't realize the back story until posted here for help -

S&amp;W in 455 Eley

BTW, re 45 Colt brass - I take it you'd recommend AGAINST shaving the cylinder to accommodate the thicker rim ....?
Precisely. The preferred method of conversion to accommodate 45 Colt cartridges in a 455 cyl for a 455/45 Colt dual cartridge cyl is to ream the chambers for 45 Colt and including a .015" case head recess. Since the .455 case rim is larger in diameter than the Colt, it will not fit down into the recess and thereby maintain its original proper headspace. And ignite both cartridges reliably.

And as a sidebar for a dual 45 ACP/AR and 45 Colt cyl, the ACP cyl chambers are reamed to move the shoulder deeper for the longer Colt cases BUT NOT deep enough for the Colt case rims to touch the cyl face, just deep enough for the Colt Rim to maintain the same headspace as the ACP rims in clips and the AR rims by setting off the cyl face .030". The shoulder can be cut round for standard roll crimped cases or cut square like the ACP/AR for use with taper crimped 45 Colt cases.

And as a 2nd sidebar for a three cartridge 455 cyl, 455/45 Colt/45 AR, with a chamber recess of .050" it'll also shoot 45 AR. With the 45 Colt CHAMBER shoulder left .035" short of its rims seating in the .050" AR recess, the cyl will shoot 45 Colt, 45 AR, and again the 455 can still be shot because it's larger diameter rim won't fit in the chamber recess so it's headspace is still proper. One cyl can safely shoot three different 45 cartridges.

Note: the 45 AR cartridge with its 14,000 pressure rating is safer to shoot in 455 non-heat treated cyls than the 45 ACP 19,000 pressure. The 455/45 Colt/45 AR pressure ratings are all about the same.
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Old 05-12-2020, 12:23 PM
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I have some .45 Auto Rim ammo that was loaded by Georgia Arms. It has a 230 grain bullet at 780 fps. Would it safe in my .455 Webley MK V (converted to .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim).?
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:57 PM
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Hondo44, thank you for such a clear explanation of the smart way to modify a cylinder. As I reload, adding the .455 is not too big a deal, but thank you nonetheless.
Collects, you are an evil man. I had never even considered refinishing this gun, but YOU [mutters Yosemite Sam curses] actually made me consider it! Don't do that! Arrgh!
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:59 PM
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I have some .45 Auto Rim ammo that was loaded by Georgia Arms. It has a 230 grain bullet at 780 fps. Would it safe in my .455 Webley MK V (converted to .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim).?
That's pretty close to what I shoot in my .455. IIRC Webley's are pretty tough top breaks.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:50 AM
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...
Collects, you are an evil man. I had never even considered refinishing this gun, but YOU [mutters Yosemite Sam curses] actually made me consider it! Don't do that! Arrgh!
I laughed for 15 minutes straight last night after reading your post. Upon rereading it today, I laughed some more. Thanks for the great laughs.

The reason why I wrote my comment is that I am the proud owner of a Triple Lock, beautifully refinished by Ford's, complete with ivory stocks. Maybe I will post some photos. My friend once owned what is now my Triple Lock. The finish looked awful, well worn, much like yours, but the action was terrific. He offered to sell it to me, cheap. I had no interest in owning such an ugly, historic gun. He sent it to Ford's. It came back, just gorgeous. I bought it from him. It shoots great. I like the Ford's refinished Triple Lock a lot better after Ford's put their talented hands on the great old revolver that while it showed lots of honest wear.
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