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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 05-19-2020, 08:34 AM
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Not sure where to put this, so I chose here as the frame falls within this time period.

I get an e-mail feed every morning from one of the major gun auction sites. This morning one of the firearms listed appears to be real “Frankengun”. Since this is an active auction, I know that it is verboten to provide a link, so you’ll have to bear with me as I describe what I found.

The seller does not identify the gun at all, they simply state that it is a pre-model – but neglect to tell you a pre-model what. It is listed under K/L frame guns and at first glance appears to be a Model 10 HB or a Model 13. However, it has adjustable sights. The rear sight is a standard S&W adjustable with the square leaf/tang, but it sits slightly proud of the top of the frame.

The front sight is a ramp that has skeletonized half-moon guards on either side of it and uses two roll-pins to secure it to the barrel – actually to a rounded rib on top of the barrel. It looks like they took a model 10 or 13 HB and enhanced/heightened the rib to raise the sight plane and give them enough “meat” to pin that strange front sight assembly.

It appears to have a target hammer and a standard trigger.

The barrel is pinned and rollmarked “38 S.&W. Special Ctg.” – so from a Model 10 HB. The listing says the caliber is .357 Magnum. The cylinder does not have rebated chambers. The 4” Heavy Barrel did not come into being until 1959 with the Model 10-1.

The frame is a 5-screw frame. The photos show a serial number on the barrel flat (under the ejector rod) and on the rear of the cylinder. The serial number, in both locations, is K140972, which correlates to 1952. But the K prefix was not used on Model 10’s, so one may surmise this started life as a K-38. The seller never shows the serial number on the butt of the gun and it is wearing speed-loader cut, checkered goncalo alves target stocks, which would be from the early 80’s onward. I'm guessing that the serial number on the barrel flat was changed to match that of the frame. The cylinder could either be original to the K-38 or also have the frame serial number added – my guess is the former. The cylinder stop stud appears to have been installed slightly rotated (flat not parallel to the recoil shield), so it was milled/filed so the correct angle was presented to the rear of the cylinder.

The work, with the exception of the cylinder stop stud, appears to be very well done. No small task to build-up and contour the rib on the barrel. The gun appears to have been re-blued, also a good job.

My only beef with this listing is the fact that it is listed as a .357 Mag – with barrel markings to the contrary. Makes me wonder if the cylinder has been re-bored and the rear face of the cylinder milled for rim clearance – not a stretch considering the rest of the work done on the gun. If it chambers a .357 round then I imagine there would be a safety issue if the cylinder started life as a .38 Spl cylinder.

They want stupid money for what is an unidentified, cobbled-up (but well-done) gun, so doubtful that it will sell – at least to a S&W knowledgeable person – but anything is possible.

Wish I could link to it, but you’re going to have find it on your own. Sorry – rules is rules.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:38 AM
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Save their photos and then copy them here.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:42 AM
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Sorry, all photos are branded with the website's name, so may be covered by copyright laws.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:48 AM
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I dug up the auction using search terms:

S&W K140972 auction


Interesting front sight shroud. Very nice bluing. I went to sellers
web site and looked at the picture album for the revolver.

It is nicely done but about $300.00 over priced I think.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:49 AM
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I saw that. The gun which the selling claims to be a 1952 gun appears to be a pre 15. A very innovated gunsmith made up some wings to make the front sight like a M-1 carbine front sight.

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Last edited by moosedog; 05-19-2020 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:05 AM
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It appears to be what is left of a wide rib "pre 14". They did a nice job cutting and recrowning the barrel. The front sight is a bit over to top, but to each their own.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:24 AM
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FYI "Fair Use" laws allow copyrighted material to be used for educational purposes as long as no profit is involved.
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Old 05-19-2020, 10:31 AM
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Missouri State Police ordered some 4" heavy barrels, but I believe the serial number is too low. Probably a shortened 6" K38.

Bob
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Old 05-19-2020, 10:38 AM
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Perhaps they revised the listing, but I see no mention of 357 Magnum???
They talk about 44 magnums and model 29's, but no mention of 357 Magnum that I can see. Am I missing something?
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Old 05-19-2020, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbrmike View Post
Perhaps they revised the listing, but I see no mention of 357 Magnum???
They talk about 44 magnums and model 29's, but no mention of 357 Magnum that I can see. Am I missing something?
They revised the listing. This morning it said: .357 Magnum

Looking at the pictures again, I have to agree - what I originally thought was a transplanted Model 10 heavy barrel appears to be a longer barrel cut down, based on the position of the roll mark. Would make more sense - barrel, cylinder and frame may be original. Wish they would show the serial on the grip frame and a top view of the gun.

Adios,

Pizza Bob
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Old 05-19-2020, 11:23 AM
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Little known fact...those wings were added to the front sight to assist in establishing leads whilst shooting down airplanes.

True story.

Really.

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Old 05-19-2020, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Doc View Post
FYI "Fair Use" laws allow copyrighted material to be used for educational purposes as long as no profit is involved.
Yes. What we do in threads like this clearly falls under the “criticism/comment” exemption that is covered by fair use.

And (at least if you have Windows) you can use the snipping tool to crop pictures down to the essential features you want to discuss, and leave out any identifying marks, so you do not link or even identify any auction, and you don’t violate any forum rules.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:57 AM
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The listing includes a link to the seller's website with a few more photos, if anyone is interested.
That barrel profile looks a lot like the .38 Heavy Masterpiece. I have one of those, also in a 4" that was cut down. From my research into mine, I think everything here looks "original" to me except for the refinish, stocks, the cut barrel and the weird front sight. IMHO, $475 tops.
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Old 05-20-2020, 11:04 AM
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Before I bought that gun I would want to see what the grip frame looks like with the grips removed, and that the SN matches. Also I would ask that the price be reduced enough to pay a gunsmith to make the front sight normal again.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Quest View Post
Little known fact...those wings were added to the front sight to assist in establishing leads whilst shooting down airplanes.

True story.

Really.
I have never seen any handguns with front sight wings. Can't imagine the purpose. Front sight wings like those on .30 Carbine and M1 Garand rifles were added mainly to protect the front sight blade to keep it from being knocked out of alignment. Some Finnish Moisin Nagant rifles also had very similar front sight wings. The Japanese did make early Type 99 rifles with "calipers" which stuck out from both sides of the rear sight for use against aircraft (to establish a lead). It turned out they were completely useless for that purpose and were quickly dropped. A Type 99 rifle with the AA "caliper" rear sight is very desirable today, and infrequently seen. Red Army training during WWII included using massed infantry rifle fire against low-flying aircraft, but so far as I know, the Russians never installed any AA sights on their rifles.

Last edited by DWalt; 05-20-2020 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 05-21-2020, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Quest View Post
Little known fact...those wings were added to the front sight to assist in establishing leads whilst shooting down airplanes.
Was this sight for shooting down hot air balloons?

Bob
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Old 05-21-2020, 10:37 AM
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I searched using those terms on GB and got this:

Results for S&W K140972 auction in Guns & Firearms
Save this Search
0 Items Found

Is it listed somewhere else?


Quote:
Originally Posted by serger View Post
I dug up the auction using search terms:

S&W K140972 auction


Interesting front sight shroud. Very nice bluing. I went to sellers
web site and looked at the picture album for the revolver.

It is nicely done but about $300.00 over priced I think.
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Old 05-21-2020, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
I have never seen any handguns with front sight wings. Can't imagine the purpose. Front sight wings like those on .30 Carbine and M1 Garand rifles were added mainly to protect the front sight blade to keep it from being knocked out of alignment. Some Finnish Moisin Nagant rifles also had very similar front sight wings. The Japanese did make early Type 99 rifles with "calipers" which stuck out from both sides of the rear sight for use against aircraft (to establish a lead). It turned out they were completely useless for that purpose and were quickly dropped. A Type 99 rifle with the AA "caliper" rear sight is very desirable today, and infrequently seen. Red Army training during WWII included using massed infantry rifle fire against low-flying aircraft, but so far as I know, the Russians never installed any AA sights on their rifles.
I actually had one of those Arisakas back in the day with the ridiculous rear sight. It had a mum on it too.

When looking at that sight, I remember thinking their reach had definitely exceeded their grasp...

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Old 05-21-2020, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model19man View Post
I searched using those terms on GB and got this:

Results for S&W K140972 auction in Guns & Firearms
Save this Search
0 Items Found

Is it listed somewhere else?
Yes. There are quite a few other auction sites. And since we are NOT allowed to link or discuss auctions on this forum until they are closed, which this one apparently is not, I’m not going to tell you where. Sorry
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Old 05-21-2020, 03:49 PM
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Wings protect a delicate sight.
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