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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 05-24-2020, 07:47 AM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month & year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month & year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month & year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month & year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month & year code  
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Default Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month & year code

Attached are photographs from a shooter grade Smith & Wesson Triple Lock purchased over 20 years ago rather cheaply. Interestingly, there is some pitting under the stocks, but the rest of the Triple Lock shows no evidence of a refinish outside of the factory and no evidence of pitting, although there is some buffing to the left side of the frame, which may have occurred due to some minor surface rust which may have more readily been placed in check without employing a buffing wheel. That is what hurts this one.

When purchased, it had a set of later replacement stocks on it, so the grips do not provide a clue, but there is a fair amount of pitting only evident under the stocks. I'm guessing the stocks got wet and stayed damp for a significant amount of time in order to cause the pitting that is present. However, I would have guessed the stocks would have dried long before the pitting present developed??? Or else, if this moderately extensive, it would be present elsewhere on the Triple Lock revolver.

Although the pitting is moderately extensive, it is not significant enough to obliterate a month & year code signifying a trip back to Springfield. As this revolver originally shipped October of 1915, this revolver was produced several years after Smith & Wesson began stamping the star and the date code on revolvers.

However, this revolver has the star but no date code. Perhaps it is a simple explanation. Stamped with the star late on a Friday afternoon, or even on a Saturday ( Smith & Wesson worked on Saturdays back then and I think even Sundays during WWII).

What is likewise amazing is that I never noticed the star on this revolver until a few weeks ago, although 20+ years ago it wouldn't have meant anything to me.
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:39 AM
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I would call that "light pitting". I saw a commercial variation of the M1917 that had craters under the stocks. Yours is way better than that.

If yours served in the muddy trenches of WWI, who knows what it went through.
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Old 05-24-2020, 08:52 AM
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If yours served in the muddy trenches of WWI, who knows what it went through.
Unlikely. It's the commercial variation in .44 S & W Special.
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Old 05-24-2020, 09:03 AM
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I had a 5" Triple Lock with the star but no date.





Ended up being sent back for a refinish by the Nashville PD.

5" Triple Lock Research

This NRM has some pitting making the date stamp a tough read:

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Old 05-24-2020, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LLOYD17 View Post
I had a 5" Triple Lock with the star but no date . . .
Why do you state it has no date? It is there, but not all is readable.

Repair date stamps started sometime in 1911 and went to 1983. I am confident that there have been at least a few over the years with a star and no date, no doubt due to human error. SWHF may have paperwork on these two TLs and might be worth the fee to have them researched.
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Old 05-24-2020, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Repair date stamps started sometime in 1911 and went to 1983. I am confident that there have been at least a few over the years with a star and no date, no doubt due to human error. SWHF may have paperwork on these two TLs and might be worth the fee to have them researched.
I believe that in order to research a possible repair or refinish at the factory, the date this was done is needed by the SWHF. Maybe Bill Cross will chime in.
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Old 05-24-2020, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
Why do you state it has no date? It is there, but not all is readable.
This is the grip frame for the TL:



The other one pictured with the pitting is a NRM I have just to show pitting over the date making it a tough read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcvs View Post
I believe that in order to research a possible repair or refinish at the factory, the date this was done is needed by the SWHF. Maybe Bill Cross will chime in.
The SWHF just needs the letter and the form filled out with serial. Date stamp not needed but probably helps. No issue finding the docs on my TL above (went back in Sept ‘33).
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:15 AM
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Actually, I think the SWHF database allows searching by serial number and type of gun. A 1916 gun is too early for billing or shipping correspondence, but if the repair occurred after 1920, Bill might indeed be able to find something. It’s always worth checking; there is no fee if it turns up empty.
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:20 AM
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I can research the revolver by serial number. If there is a repair or refinish record in the database (1920-1967), it should come up.

Bill
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:51 AM
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The man says he had a star and no date. I very quickly decided it was time to play "Can You Top This?", but with real guns----and no jokes.


Here goes: I had a Registered Magnum with FIVE STARS---and no date-----or maybe two different dates. It was nickel----and drop dead gorgeous----but you had to look close for the weird stuff. The star on the frame was on the grip frame---on the left side. (I really don't remember where, but maybe up high on the left side.) The star on the cylinder was in plain sight---under the ejector star. The yoke---don't remember---guessing on the side with the serial number. The one on the barrel was all but invisible----inside the ejector rod shroud. Last---the sideplate---inside. And speaking of inside the sideplate, everything in there looked like it was brand spanking new. Okay the date, or dates, or whatever: A five digit number on the grip frame---five digits, no symbols, no spaces in between---could have been a date----could have been one of two different dates.

So why did they do this the way they did? Because it made perfect sense to them at the time----maybe it went like this: "The Boss told me to do it this way, so that's the way I did it."

THE END!!

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 05-24-2020, 11:51 AM
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Perhaps this TL had a rework before the gun was shipped? That might explain the combination of the star and no date, since it never left the factory.
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Old 05-24-2020, 12:00 PM
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Perhaps this TL had a rework before the gun was shipped? That might explain the combination of the star and no date, since it never left the factory.
Maybe, but as I recall, that scenario gets an 'R', and translates to "Repaired during the course of manufacture." I don't recall who told me that, but it was one of those folks you listen to----and remember what they said---one of those folks on a short list.

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Old 05-24-2020, 02:53 PM
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I had a Brazilian Model 1917 that had craters so deep you could see light through them.
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:15 AM
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A message was sent to Bill Cross to see if there is any information on this one in the SWHF.

Since a copy of the factory letter is required, I photographed it to send to Mr Cross and also here it is posted for the benefit of others on the forum.
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:37 PM
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I can research the revolver by serial number. If there is a repair or refinish record in the database (1920-1967), it should come up.

Bill
Bill,

I sent you an e-mail about this revolver Triple Lock 11826, star and no refinish/repair month and year code but I don't think you received my e-mail message. Please let me know if anything turns up in the SWHF database.

I thank you in advance.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:32 PM
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UPDATE:

First, thank you Bill Cross! He researched the SWHF records and the following was located:

Cursive, hand written letters

8-26-1929-
Smith & Wesson Inc.
Gentlemen I am shipping
to day 44 S W Special
I want new barrell (sic)
Put in and return
at once Charges C.O.D.
Yours very Truly
Chas A. Shoun Const_
Johnson City Tenn
Route No 6-

South Eastern Express Co
Johnson City, Tennessee


SMITH & WESSON, REC'D AUG 28 1929

Next letter stamped SMITH & WESSON REC'D SEP 1929, but exact date illegible

Johnson City Tenn -
Sept 3- 1929
Smith & Wesson Inc-
I have letter From Mr Williams of your Repair department giving Price of Barrell $5.58 which I decided to have New Barrell Put in So Please EXPlain what you have raised to $11.16 for. As for the Money Order I Can forward it at once But I sent letter saying Put in New Barrell only and if 11-16 is the price of a New Barrell Kindly Send it Back EXPress C.O.D. for I dont want to put that much money in it But I dont under Stand Why he maied (sic) me Price $5.58 for New Barrell 6 1/2 inches and Now the Price is $11.16-
Please advise at once if you all can Put in New Barrell at $5.58 Money Order Will Be Sent to Carrier Charge if not Kindly Send it Back.
Yours Very Truly
Chas Shoun Constable
Johnson City Tenn
Route No 6----


This was the first two of three pages of this letter, the third page stating the following: New Barrell Only-
No Bluing or Renickling


And then typewritten correspondence from Smith & Wesson, with Constable Shoun's name spelled incorrectly:

Sept. 6, 1929.

Mr. Charles A. Shoern, Const.
Route #6
Johnson City, Tennessee

Dear Sir:

In reply to your letter of Sept. 3, would state that the revolver nedded (sic) new parts as follows, to place it in good working order-Extractor, Lug, Stocks and Cylinder. The cost of these parts would be to you (being a constable) $5.58. The cost of a new barrel, $5.58, total Charge $11.16.

As the police generally want their arm in good working order, and as your letter did not state (barrel only) we estimated for the necessary repairs.

We will hold the revolver subject to your reply, we are

Very truly yours,

SMITH & WESSON, INC.

Repair Department

CWW/FS


And then the following letter, with ".44 HE #11826 Repair" penciled in at the top, "Pd 1116 9-16-29" to the upper left, and "Ship'd OCT 3 1929" stamped at the bottom:

Johnson City Tenn-
Sept. 13 1929-
Smith & Wesson Inc
Gentlemen Find Enclosed Money Order for $11-16 for Repairs on 44 Revolver
Would apreciate (sic) it if you Would return as Soon as Possiable (sic).
Your Very Truly
Chas. ShOUN. Constable

My EXPress affice (sic) is
South Eastern EXPress- Co-
or American Railway Express Co
Johnson City Tenn


So, all from this one star, the aforementioned resulted. Quite interesting in themselves. Not sure why a revolver, and a Triple Lock at that, would require such an overhaul after having shipped slightly less than 14 years previously, unless damage was significant enough to blow out the top strap, which was not the case.

Markings and such give no indication that the barrel, cylinder, etc. is a replacement which indicates to me that Smith & Wesson might have had new old stock on hand as late as 1929.

Comments appreciated. Also, any genealogy relative to Charles Shoun or or other biographical information, if this is known.

Last edited by mrcvs; 03-17-2023 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 06-06-2020, 09:28 AM
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There are a number of articles from the Johnson City area that mention his name between the 1910's and 1960's. Here are a couple notable ones.

Love those SWHF searches. I've got a few queued up for posting that show the fun of buying old S&W's with the star.

From June 1934:
Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month & year code-jun-1934-jpg

And Dec 1937:
Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month & year code-dec-1937-jpg
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Old 06-06-2020, 11:10 AM
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Thank you for the search. However, R Chas Shoun cannot be the constable who owned this Triple Lock as his name was Charles (Chas) A Shoun. There was a Chas Alexander Shoun born in the Johnson City area late 1860's and died in 1931. However, a few decades before the correspondence between Smith & Wesson he had left the area and moved to Kentucky.
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Old 06-06-2020, 11:33 AM
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Thank you for the search. However, R Chas Shoun cannot be the constable who owned this Triple Lock as his name was Charles (Chas) A Shoun. There was a Chas Alexander Shoun born in the Johnson City area late 1860's and died in 1931. However, a few decades before the correspondence between Smith & Wesson he had left the area and moved to Kentucky.
Copy. I had see a few from the earlier 1900's. There was a Johnson City constable in 1929 and 1930 named Charles R. Shoun but it seems maybe the Shoun name was prolific in that area at the time.
Here's a Chas Shoun on Route 6 running into horse issues:
Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month & year code-chas-shoun-jpg
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Old 06-06-2020, 01:10 PM
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Now that's probably the correct Charles Shoun as correspondence to Smith & Wesson references Route 6 in Johnson City. What's the date of that news clipping?
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Old 06-06-2020, 01:24 PM
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Now that's probably the correct Charles Shoun as correspondence to Smith & Wesson references Route 6 in Johnson City. What's the date of that news clipping?
July 18, 1931
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Old 06-06-2020, 02:02 PM
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It is very possible that the repair person at S&W did not get the email stating that a date stamp was required when repairs were made and only stamped the star. Who knows, it could even be that the wi-fi was down that day???
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Old 06-06-2020, 02:31 PM
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In other oddities, my 1909 TL has <B> but no star and of course, no date. Thinking is it went back for checkering of the backstrap etc. immediately on receipt by the purchaser, so it'd need a reblue from the checkering but no other work.

Older Triplelock (Sock drawer gun?) Now with Letter
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Old 06-16-2020, 07:51 PM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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It's just a well used Triple lock, with some unexplainable buffing to the right side. But, are there any indications to you that the barrel and cylinder are anything but original? Because they aren't, as per the work that was done, but I'm surprised that the attention to detail was such that replacement parts in 1929 were identical to original. I would guess there were NOS parts on hand, but, on the other hand, would Smith & Wesson retain parts that may never be used, especially 11 years after the last Triple Lock shipped, as opposed to just assembling them all and having no parts on hand?

There is attention to detail, even the serial number 11826 is stamped inside the yoke. I did not look for all the other locations, but I'm surprised Smith & Wesson would go to that much effort on a rebuild of a 14 year old Triple Lock.

The stocks are well used but comparable condition to the Triple Lock N frame pre war stocks. Sadly, they replace what was not on the gun at the time of purchase by the owner several decades ago; they were replaced as they were deemed not accurate at the time of purchase, but perhaps they were replacements of the stocks affixed in 1929, or maybe they were 1929 replacements and not necessarily pre war N frame stocks. Would Smith & Wesson have kept those in stock at such a late date?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 11826, right side.jpg (19.5 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg 11826, left side.jpg (19.7 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg 11826, cylinder face.jpg (19.8 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg 11826, barrel address.jpg (14.0 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg 11826, calibre markings.jpg (19.6 KB, 25 views)
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  #25  
Old 06-16-2020, 09:11 PM
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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Roy would probably be a better person to answer those questions but I would think that S&W kept parts on hand for all of their guns knowing that eventually some would return for repairs.

Even if it was through no fault of S&W and their manufacture, stuff happens. Guns get dropped, guns get bulged barrels when reloaders don't use enough powder etc. JMHO
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Old 06-17-2020, 03:24 AM
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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I believe S&W had a lot of parts left after a model discontinuance, than they did frames. They would build out all the frames and by design still have tons of the smaller parts.

Being familiar with inventory plng and mgmt of a manufacturing plant, I suspect Smith had a % of overbuild of parts compared to frames; just for discussion say 15%, to allow for mis-machined parts and future repairs. I know they had tons of old parts stored for years. Generally they ended up at the sources where we find and buy them now.

For example, earlier this century S&W auctioned off ~50, 55 gallon drums filled with parts. I obtained a brand new blued TL barrel and associated locking bolt parts from that shipment. That batch of parts were then resold to Poppert's Parts who I believe still retains what's left of them for sale on line.
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Old 06-17-2020, 05:09 AM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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It makes sense that the limiting factor with regards to whether or not a revolver was built would be whatever part ran out first. I agree that would be most likely to be the frame.
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Old 06-17-2020, 05:11 AM
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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For example, earlier this century S&W auctioned off ~50, 55 gallon drums filled with parts. I obtained a brand new blued TL barrel and associated locking bolt parts from that shipment. That batch of parts were then resold to Poppert's Parts who I believe still retains what's left of them for sale on line.
Earlier THIS Century, as in the last 20 years??? Smith & Wesson was auctioning off Triple Lock parts? It seems hard to believe that was not in the last Century, as in a year beginning with 19, and probably not in the last third of that one.

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Old 06-17-2020, 08:05 AM
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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It makes sense that the limiting factor with regards to whether or not a revolver was built would be whatever part ran out first. I agree that would be most likely to be the frame.
IIRC, when an order to produce a certain gun came down, it would be a round number like 50 or 100. The factory would then run 55 or 60 frames and they would receive serial numbers. Since many parts were interchangeable between models, many more triggers, hammers, barrels etc were also made. Since the parts out numbered the frames, it stands to reason that there would be NOS parts left over after a gun had had its time in history and removed from production.

S&W always had an active repair department and they would obviously need parts for either repairs or upgrades should a customer want something changed on their gun.

According to Don, many times these old parts were placed in drums and sent off to the local scrap yard as salvage. This also includes old boxes and stocks that different management teams deemed no longer useful.

Imagine what one could find buried at the Springfield dump????
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Old 06-17-2020, 02:02 PM
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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IIRC, when an order to produce a certain gun came down, it would be a round number like 50 or 100.
Back in the day when the Triple Lock was being produced, I was informed by a very reputable source, that frames would be forged in very large batches, far greater than 50 or 100. I thought it was 1,000 or 2,000 at a time. It was someone very reputable, like Ed (opoefc). Maybe he can chime in.

Which is why serial numbers do not correlate with shipping dates. a few thousand numbered frames at a time, most sold off, a few in the back of the safe not sold off, a few thousand forged again, placed in the front, maybe the net time around more sold before the net batch, meaning a lower number ships later than those higher in number, etc., etc.
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Old 06-17-2020, 06:36 PM
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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I should have clarified. I only used the numbers 50 and 100 as examples of a round number meaning that they didn't do a run of 46 or 79. As with the Bekeart model or the .22/32 HFT as many know the model by, the first run was for 1,050 frames and all of these were shipped.

Although the story says that Bekeart ordered 1,000 of this configuration in order for S&W to even consider producing this new gun, we know now that he only actually received 294 with the rest shipping out to other S&W suppliers of the day.
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Old 06-17-2020, 10:42 PM
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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Earlier THIS Century, as in the last 20 years??? Smith & Wesson was auctioning off Triple Lock parts? It seems hard to believe that was not in the last Century, as in a year beginning with 19, and probably not in the last third of that one.

Details...
Sending you a PM.
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Old 03-17-2023, 09:56 AM
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Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code Repair/refinish star on a Triple Lock without the obligatory month &amp; year code  
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I thought I would resurrect this thread as it’s an interesting read-for fresh eyes. I had reason to reference it today, having no recollection whatsoever of creating such a thread.

It’s interesting that you have a Triple Lock revolver with extensive damage that was refurbished in 1929. My only clue as to this occurring was a star next to the frame serial number-but no month and date code is present on the frame under the stocks. Indeed, I owned this revolver over 20 years before I even noticed this star.
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