Hello Forum,
I haven't been here in a while and missed the forum.
I have a question about a triple lock conversion I am in a position to acquire.
It is serial number 1055. Barrel cylinder and frame match. The barrel is hand stamped 45 long colt on the left side where Smith would have put it. It looks hand stamped not roll marked. The recoil shield has been relieved to complete the conversion from 455 to 45 lc. The lock work is tight and the bore looks excellent. A 45 long colt drops right in. It does not appear to have any other mods.
The finish is orig. good cond., pre war brass medallion grips worn. The lanyard ring has been removed. It has Brit proofs but no "not english make" or discharge from service proofs.
I intend to shoot it sparingly for the experience. Seller is looking for $650.00. Your thoughts and comments welcome. Thank you,
Adam

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Adam-12

Sounds like something I couldn't walk away from at $650. Good luck, pictures when you get it please.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

That one would already be in my car on the way home.

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Randy
Provenance nerd

Me too~~~~

Thank you for the quick responses. I was concerned with the conversion as it lowers the collectibility. I usually buy the best cond. I can afford. This one is an oddity to me so I knew where to come and seek advise. I will buy it and post pics for your reviews.
Thank you,
Adam

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Adam-12

It's an oddity Adam, but sounds like a desirable one!?!
Check out the custom vs. factory thread.

Will Do Thanks for the heads up!
Adam

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Adam-12

$650? You're kidding , right? Grab that gun!

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Please post photographs but a Triple Lock that has not been reblued but has been converted to .45 Colt generally brings $800 to $850, so if offered to you at $650, it is likely a very good deal.

mrcvs,
yes based on past S&W collecting, I believe my assessment is orig. finish in good condition. Once I get it oiled up it may come back to life a little.
I used to do wonders with old lugers and some TLC.
Adam

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Adam-12

I wouldn't be overjoyed about the shaved recoil shield, as that is the crudest possible butchery to do a .455 to .45 Colt conversion. For that reason alone, I would personally pass at $650 knowing the thought of someone doing that would bother me for a long time. I couldn't live with it. Had it been converted the right way, I would jump on it for $650.

I'd buy it too. The shaved recoil shield conversion method is not my favorite either, but at least the cyl still has the matching serial # on it.

I prefer the recessed chambers so it will also properly shoot .455 cartridges. However, the old N frames have such long hammer noses (firing pins), I expect it will still reliably shoot .455, albeit the long bullet jump in the 45 Colt chambers will not help accuracy. Although some shoot just as well with .455 ammo as in non-rechambered cyls.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

What concerns are you having with the shaved recoil plate?
I prefer this to losing the serial number on the cylinder face and tampering with the star ejector/hand. The recoil shield mod looks clean not dremeled so to speak.
Adam

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Adam-12

Converting it properly by rechambering cylinders to .45 Colt and adding a slight rim recess does not affect the cylinder SN. Shaving the recoil shield or rear cylinder face is butchery.

So is the gun barrel was stamped 455 or not? If a British 455, that would be the reason why it would have been necessary to shave the recoil shield in order to chamber the thicker rim 45 Colt cartridges. If it were originally a 44 Special, only the chamber and barrel would have needed modification. I have one 455 that has just enough counter-boring to allow the rim to sit in the chamber. In my mind, this is the best of all options for conversion, leaving the recoil shield intact and the serial number on the original length cylinder. With either this method or shaving the recoil shield, you can still shoot original 455 ammo or 45 Colt.

Others can help out here, but if a 455, it would have been called a 455 Mark II Hand Ejector, 1st Model. I have not seen the term New Century used with the 455, but it is the same frame/barrel designed gun as the 44 HE, 1st Model or New Century?? What is the consensus out there?

BTW, I have three 455s and shoot them lots, well made revolvers and a great gun to take to the range. Never had an issue, but only hand load mild loads or shoot Fiocchi factory ammo for the brass.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Adam,

A couple of reasons:

1. The frame is modified unnecessarily.
2. If someone wished to reverse the conversion to the gun back to the original .455 cartridge, one could not just replace the cyl.
3. Not in your case fortunately from what you say, but some shaved recoil shields look amateurish.
4. Shaving usually takes the crimping off of the hammer nose (firing pin) bushing, and it can move forward needing replacement/recrimping.
5. Shaving compromises the recoil shield functions: the recoil shield is not originally flat, it provides a ramp or camming effect to case heads to snug the cases against the cyl face before they come into battery. Also when closing a loaded cyl.

Shaving the cyl is less problematic but removes the serial # and proper .455 head space.

Only recessing the chambers .015" for the thicker 45 Colt rims while reaming the chambers, is the least invasive, negates all the above issues, and retains the serial #. In addition, because of it's wider rim, .455 can still be fired with its proper head space.

Hope that's helpful,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

When used by S&W, the term .455 MKII only refers to the cartridge and was never marked on the barrels, in fact it's a misnomer because .455s are all chambered for the longer MKI cartridge at the request of the British. However 455 MKII was used on the box labels along with Government Model.

The triple lock .455s have two designations determined by what they 'started life' as:

Type 1. The very first 666 are “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, .455 chambering: factory reconfigured unassembled or any unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Model". And serial numbered in the .44 Spl # range.

Type 2. The next 5800 are “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL”. And serial numbered in the .455 British # range.

Type 4. The last ~691 are also the “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, .455 chambering: factory assembled from parts. And serial numbered in the .44 Spl # range.


The Type 3. “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (non-triple locks) again S&W is referring to the cartridge on the box label, only the British referred to the gun as a MKII, and they actually stamped it on all 2nd Models, left side of the frame.

The "New Century" was more of a marketing title only used for advertising the original 44 TL. However I agree, as you posted, it's a description that certainly applies to any of the Triple Lock models IMO, such as the .455 Types 1, 2 and 4. There's a few Triple Locks chambered for other than .44 caliber, including the .455 before the British contract for .455s.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Poo Poo all the negativity. I have a 2nd Model that was converted, the work was done very cleanly and professionally. I've done the conversion myself with a reamer and that is the best way, but...who wouldn't want to shoot .45 Colt over hard to find, expensive and obsolete .455 ammo. I shoot lead bullet Winchester Cowboy loads.
Besides, once something is done, what's the point in criticizing it?
Congrats on your shootable Triplelock!

If you're interested only in shooting, everything you say is absolutely correct.

Your wrong about criticizing, just responding to the OP's question and sharing the details. You must have missed this in the OP's post 13:

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Jim
S&WCA #819

AMEN! Somebody finally said it!

I think he was referencing the rather colorful language (e.g. "butchery").

What's done is done. Especially something probably done long ago by a man who is now pushing up daisies. I just don't get all the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

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You're shy a few manners.

There is no wailing or gnashing of teeth. I said only that I personally would have no interest in buying it because it would bother me to have something in that condition. For anyone who is unconcerned about a shaved recoil shield and whose only interest is in having a shooter, I have no quarrel. And if it's not butchery, then what is it?

Well, I got to kind of agreed with SDH on this. What is done is done. All the coulda shouldas in the world won't change that. Mine was done by the ream the cylinder with slight recesses method. Wish it was stock kind of, but then I am a 45 colt guy. I am happu. Op should be too for that price. If the recoils shield bushing has.t fell out in the last probably 70 years it probably won't.

It is what it is a 45 colt triple lock. Not very many "perfect" ones anyway. Shoot it love it.

If I had started in this game long ago and managed to gather up a bunch of top shelf hard to find guns, I might not be as thrilled as some. But, the number of guys with real triple lock collections is pretty slim

I don't take issue with a properly-done .455-45 Colt conversion as described, as it does not change the revolver's basic construction and appearance in any significant way. I would have no regrets about owning one. And if performed on a revolver in average used cosmetic condition, I wouldn't expect much, if any, value diminution, even though it has been slightly altered inoffensively from its original condition. Shaving cylinders or recoil shields, to me, puts it in a much-reduced desirability class. Negativity has nothing to do with it.

glowe,
The barrel is not marked 455. It is hand stamped long colt. Each letter done individually. It looks decent. Serial number match on barrel,cylinder,frame. It is 1055.. What year was this serial numbered revolver made? I took into account all responses. I purchased it for 600.00 cash. The seller reduced the asking price based on my concerns how the gun was modified. I took 6 snap caps in 45 colt with me. The function check and cycling was flawless in both single and double action. The shaving of the recoil shield is barely noticiible. I'm planning on shooting it gently as suggested. I have others I oogle over. I look at it as it was an inexpensive revolver surplused that was avail back in the day for conversions. I had some M1 Garands converted to 308. Not a big deal if your shooting it.
I will post some pics soon. Thank you everyone for assisting me in my decision to purchase it.
Adam

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Adam-12

Adam,

Congrats! #1055.. is too many digits how about 1055X, or just 1055? Here's what we think we know about your Type 4 Triple Lock:


4.“.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, same as Type #1., but not likely converted .44s, just assembled into .455s.

“As the Brit contracts were finishing up in April, 1916, [H of S&W pg. 203] S&W found enough [HE 1st Model TL frames, possibly already numbered as .44s, and .455 barrels and cyls] to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters] Triple Lock frames [for chambering in .455 like Type #1.]. These guns are numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett

If yours is a 5 digit #, with British marks, it would fall under one of the following 2 scenarios:

“In April, 1916, the Factory found enough parts to assemble 691 Triple Lock 455s. They were assembled from April to Oct of 1916. They were numbered [late] in the 44 HE series. All I have seen are numbered from the 12,000 to 14,000's. [in 1916 and 1917 - 325 were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and some to Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, MO.]

"Some letter as being commercial sales, but I have long suspected that S&W simply slid many into the last of the British shipments at the standard price for the 455-2nd Models. I say that because I have observed several now with Brit ordnance marks and/or commercial proofs.” Lee Jarrett

“Another suspicion? Some of the 691 sold on the commercial market were then purchased by the British purchasing agent to make their way across the big pond for military use, and have English stamps.” Hondo44

If the full # is just 1055 it could be a Type 1, but the # is not listed as a Type 1. Therefore it would be worth sending for an Historical Authentication Letter. It could be history making.

By the way, the grip medallions are genuine gold plate over brass.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

That sounds like a plan Adam. We would still like to see pictures when you get around to it and don't forget the range report.

Do as you wish and follow the advice that suits your desires.
Just consider that the shaved recoil shield can NEVER be fixed. It is past the point of no return.
The price seems very good for a modified TL, but the quality of the modification is the denominator.
Personally, I would walk away wondering all the time if I made the right decision but I would much rather that than regretting for a very long time that I purchased something that was modified improperly and can never be corrected.

Gee, I don't know...

The OP paid $600 for his Triple Lock. If the stocks are decent, they would be worth $200, or nearly so, as that is what a set of pre war N frame stocks with medallions bring these days. Surely the component parts independent of the frame and the shaved recoil shield would be worth $400, or nearly so, if parted out. I don't know what these parts would bring individually, but you would be surprised when someone needs a component part.

I"m not saying you should part it out, but where else can you have so much fun for $600 and in .45 Colt? Where else can you get a Triple Lock for $600 these days?

mrcvs,
You will always have nah sayers in the collecting realm. Some spend a life time chasing the wind. Some will never be satisfied. I took the totality of the circumstances.
1. When you going to find locally a triple lock? I'm not going to the auctions.
2. I stated , I am shooting it. I was not looking for the holy grail.
3. It is a minor mod that can be enjoyed in 45lc. Yet outwardly appears to be an accurate representation.
4. The serial number is 1055, yes 1055 on all numbered parts except grips. They are a higher number but correct representation.
That's why I bought it.
Thank you,
Adam

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Adam-12

Whine, snivel, bitch, moan.......
You got a Triplelock, they don't......

#1055 is a horse of another color! That confirms your triple lock as a:

Type 2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to ~5800 shipped 1914-15. The first British contract revolvers originally manufactured in .455. From #1 thru ~ 28839 serial range, the contract revolvers, like yours, were not roll marked .455 on the barrel.

See post # 223 on page 5 of this study thread: .455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Still would like to see photos and a range report.

Question to those who know:
Does a converted TL shoot to its original sights? I've always wondered.

Curl

Mine shoots pretty close, but a bit low. Most of my fixed sight guns do though. Big hands and wrists so less muzzle climb.

A 45 colt and a 455 slugs weigh close to the same amount. The 455 velocity is about 700fps and the 45 colt about 900. The colt has some more recoil, but spends less time in the barrel. It kind of works out even. Don't think it is just mine either. Years ago a freind had a second model that was converted and it shot good enough that he used it to shoot rabbits. I had a model 28 we would go out in the winter and get cotton tails for the table. He could get most of them in the head if they just sit there. This was before I could afford a K22 and was at the time a 1 revolver guy.

Home gunsmithing. Amateur caliber conversion.

I remember reading an article about just such a conversion in one of the popular gun magazines long ago (Possibly Guns and Ammo or Shooting Times, I can't recall. Before you scoff at the source, remember that the NRA frequently published articles in a similar vein.) I don't remember if the revolver involved was a S&W or Colt, but it was chambered in .455.

Anyways, the author described the exact modifications that have been made on Adam's new purchase. I understand that this isn't in keeping with the best practices of a master gunsmith. But it's something a guy could do himself with minimal tools and have a functioning shooter for which ammunition was readily available in the US. So it's something people did.

This of course goes back to the days when the US was awash in surplus military firearms. With Lugers, Walthers, M1917s, M1911s, etc going for bargain prices, it isn't hard to see why an old WWI relic, in an obsolete foreign caliber to boot, was selling so cheaply. Webleys often got converted too, but usually to .45 ACP.

I note that Adam hasn't posted a whole lot here. I hope that changes. I look forward to pictures of his TL and possibly a range report as well. I sure would have paid $600 for it.

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You're shy a few manners.

Jack,
I recently returned to S&W's so that is why the long break or hiatus.
I had at one time one helluva s&w revolver collection, many NIB mostly every cal. but 32 long. I had a German axis pistol collection that made advanced collectors blush. I shifted to hi-power shooting in the later part of 1999. It gobbled up allot of $$$$. I let things go I reflect back upon now. I'm a semi retired guy so the funds aren't as readily disposable like 20 years ago. If I see a nice desirable gun like the triple lock and it's one I never owned before I buy it. I still have a 1971 model 29-2 with wood box. It was made around the time Dirty Harry came out. I have a model 27-2 that is just to die for in condition. I have shot that because it screams so. So I have had some cool stuff. I'm also a brit bike rider(Norton Commando) and have a classic car. Too many hobbies I guess? lol... And in my spare time hah ha , I'm a husband, Dad, and Grandfather.
Adam

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Adam-12

Adam I think you did very well with your purchase. My first Triple Lock is a rusted pitted mess but the action is smooth and tight and the bore and chambers fine. I shoot the heck out of it and pass it around to let others shoot it as well. The younger guys can't believe how well a rusty 100+ year old gun shoots. The big plus for me is getting to shoot the gun as opposed to just having the gun.

series guy,
Amen..... I had pistols and revolvers that I just coveted and never shot later to pass them onto someone else. I should have taken the time to shoot each and everyone before selling them. Then I truly could say I have experienced their ownership fully. I have colleagues who own classic corvettes and they never drive them. It's kinda the same as having a fine firearm and never shooting it. Thank you for the kind words in your above posting.
Adam

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Adam-12

As promised.

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Adam-12

I found serial # 1055 on frame butt, cylinder, barrel shroud, crane, and ejector star. Grips much later 28839. Where is the 7th loc on a triple lock with fixed sights?
Thank you,
Adam

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Adam-12

Nice TL.

7th s/n location: 7. Mid-lock cam plate, back side with cyl open – “Triple Locks” only, in any caliber (up to all 5 digits).


Photo by Driftwood Johnson

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim,
Found it thanks.
Also 1055.
Hiding under the old oil.
Adam

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Adam-12

Great, all matching exc. grips (typical).

That TL is highly likely from 1914 when grips when all grips had medallions. I much prefer those gold plated medallions your grips have.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I wouldn't be so sure.

IF this was originally chambered in .44 S & W Special, I would think so. Those chambered in .455 Webley were later guns; all produced after mid 1910 when the non medallion stocks were phased out. I have noted very few Triple Locks over the years chambered originally in .455 Webley with non medallion stocks and those very few examples (at least one, maybe another one???) were obviously restocked with the much rarer non medallion stocks. Probably by an owner many decades ago when said Triple Lock was fairly new and a pair of spare non medallion stocks would be much more commonplace.

The gold is worn off the medallions. The checkring is much better than I remembered from the 1st time I looked at it. They appear to have some shrinkage near the back strap. Right grip numbered to a much higher gun 5 digit. Right grip has had a repair.
Overall very pleased .
Adam

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Adam-12

You're right, hadn't seen the thread for awhile and that it's a 455! No chance it would not have medallion grips!
Thx

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Not shrinkage. They were fitted to a different gun matching the 5 digit # you see.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Very nice. Can you post a picture of the recoil shield?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Muley Gil,
This all that was done during the conversion from 455 to 45 colt.
The barrel was also hand stamped long colt to alert a shooter of the conversion.
Adam

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Adam-12

Also the chambers were reamed deeper of course to move the shoulder forward shortening the chamber throats.

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Jim
S&WCA #819