Mystery post war 1917

Hondo44 · #51 05-31-2020, 02:19 PM

Kevin,

Great photos. the center and left two photos are both post 1942 which show the change to serial #s that read with muzzle to the left and are offset to the rear with and w/o the lanyard swivel.

Pre war commercial models with lanyard swivel will read with barrel to the right and # offset to the rear. W/o the swivel the # reads with barrel to the right but is centered, here's #1045 a K frame:

Triple Lock Target Appreciation Thread-20200531_023147-jpg

Triple Lock Target Appreciation Thread-20200531_023147-jpg

Photo courtesy of kryten67

Absalom · #52 05-31-2020, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

In all fairness, S&W bit the bullet with the Model 1917 Army by beginning it's serial range at #1. Smith precedents indicate all non-contract large N frames used the same serial range just like Colt's New Service.
.

Neither manufacturer was consistent over time. Probably obscure record-keeping routines in play.

After all, S&W also had precedents of two numbers: for example the Model 1899 and 1902 Navy contracts had both a factory serial (on the front strap) and a separate Navy number on the butt.

Mystery post war 1917-1902-nvy-jpg

Colt had two separate numbers on the Navy .38 DA military guns, both on the butt. For the Army, just the regular serial on the butt seems to have satisfied requirements.

Mystery post war 1917-butt-numbers2-jpg

Funny enough, by WW II the government was apparently okay with S&W just using the continuing serial of the M&P series. Ironically, on the Colt Commando they got the separate serial sequence, although nothing at all was stamped on the butt.

kwill1911 · #53 05-31-2020, 03:42 PM

It is now a felony to own. It may be low risk but why take ANY risk on a no-to-low value gun?

kwh · #54 05-31-2020, 04:00 PM

If you traded through an FFL, then as part of the paperwork ,you should have a registered serial number to make the trade legal.
How does it shoot?

kwill1911 · #55 05-31-2020, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwh

If you traded through an FFL, then as part of the paperwork ,you should have a registered serial number to make the trade legal.
How does it shoot?

No, the buyer (and the FFL) can plead ignorance but it does not make the gun legal to use a random number as the serial number.

tenntex32 · #56 05-31-2020, 07:04 PM

I guess I should pay the picture tax for all the jabbering I did earlier.

Here's a S&W M1917 example of mine (s/n 21003) whose s/n falls smack dab in between Robinslt's M1917 barrel s/n of 20857 and cylinder s/n of 21316.

Looks like I need to take some better quality and more overall pics of this one, as I hadn't realized just how terrible these pics truly are! (It is correct and has all matching serial numbers, including the stocks.)

Dale

Hondo44 · #57 06-01-2020, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenntex32

Jim,

I love you man I truly do but know this...….I would never make it a practice to go adding any numbers to any gun in an attempt to correct a missing/removed s/n without knowing 100% what the original s/n was and then only with ATF permission and guidance. (Nor would I even suggest such to others without them having proper ATF permission and guidance.)

In this instance we know not what the original butt s/n was. We have established that fact due to the mismatched assembly numbers on the frame and yoke.

I say this for the OP's benefit.

Dale

I feel the same about you. And I agree with everything you posted. You make a very good point, just not applicable to my post.

It's already been acknowledged that the 16 is not the serial #, and we don't know what the original is. So the fact remains that neither is the serial # therefore how can they be illegally defaced/changed by adding #s to them, right?. There's no law against stamping anything we want on our own gun as long as the original serial # is not changed, defaced, etc.

Intent is a horse of a whole 'nother color. Hence what I posted was: "If you feel better...." See the difference?

Also, who knows what # the gun is now registered under; the assembly # in the frame yoke cut out, #16, or what? Adding #s won't change that. The system has accepted 'a' # so if the gun is checked for registration, it will be found to have been legally transferred and registered.

Albeit to us, clearly having been registered incorrectly, but thru no fault of any owner!

I still wouldn't want it!

Hondo44 · #58 06-01-2020, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

Neither manufacturer was consistent over time. Probably obscure record-keeping routines in play.

After all, S&W also had precedents of two numbers: for example the Model 1899 and 1902 Navy contracts had both a factory serial (on the front strap) and a separate Navy number on the butt.

Colt had two separate numbers on the Navy .38 DA military guns, both on the butt. For the Army, just the regular serial on the butt seems to have satisfied requirements.

Funny enough, by WW II the government was apparently okay with S&W just using the continuing serial of the M&P series. Ironically, on the Colt Commando they got the separate serial sequence, although nothing at all was stamped on the butt.

Thanks that's all interesting.

To the original point of the issue of 1917 # confusion, and S&W using one # for serial and gov't #, they apparently learned from past experiences, bit the bullet, and broke their serial # range protocol of the teens and beyond. By starting with #1 it kept the S&W 1917 less confusing while Colt didn't.

On the WWII M&Ps they clearly prevailed with their protocol of continuing the existing serial range, somehow.

tenntex32 · #59 06-01-2020, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

I feel the same about you. And I agree with everything you posted. You make a very good point, just not applicable to my post.

It's already been acknowledged that the 16 is not the serial #, and we don't know what the original is. So the fact remains that neither is the serial # therefore how can they be illegally defaced/changed by adding #s to them, right?. There's no law against stamping anything we want on our own gun as long as the original serial # is not changed, defaced, etc.

Intent is a horse of a whole 'nother color. Hence what I posted was: "If you feel better...." See the difference?

Also, who knows what # the gun is now registered under; the assembly # in the frame yoke cut out, #16, or what? Adding #s won't change that. The system has accepted 'a' # so if the gun is checked for registration, it will be found to have been legally transferred and registered.

Albeit to us, clearly having been registered incorrectly, but thru no fault of any owner!

I still wouldn't want it!

I know not of this "gun registration" you speak of as Texas does not have gun registration.

That being said I have stopped several shops/dealers from using the wrong s/n on the 4473 form due to them assuming rather incorrectly an assembly number or Army butt number was the gun's actual s/n. (Think both Colt and S&W examples here.)

The "16" stamped on numerous parts of the OP's revolver was simply a random number used for tracking during rework. It could be argued very accurately that it is simply a coincidence that the "16" is also the last two digits of the cylinder's s/n for the OP's example. I have 3 Colt M1917 reworked examples having added numbers applied during rework. None of the 3 examples' added parts tracking numbers correlate to the guns' actual serial numbers nor their butt numbers. I'll attach a few pics of a reworked Colt M1917 having a two-digit added number of "17" on various numerous parts. You can plainly see the added two-digit number does not correlate to it's actual s/n nor it's butt number. Remember, on the Colt M1917 examples the frame serial number is not the Army butt number, but rather is stamped on the frame where the crane mates when the cylinder is closed.

If I know in good faith that the original correct serial number is no longer on the gun's frame, nor is it any longer discernable, then I too want no part of it. Whatever incorrect number was used in the past with regards to "registration" s/n matters not to me personally. I want the revolver's actual legal s/n from the frame on the 4473 form I sign. If that cannot be determined then I want no part of it unless directed otherwise through FFL contacts with ATF direction. And then only if for some reason it has true collectable status due to such and not just some random civilian owner removing the butt serial number and butt markings because they thought they couldn't own it due to them still being there.

Maybe I'm being a tad overly cautious here but rest assured what I won't be doing is applying any additional numbers to any gun in an effort to clarify what I think should be the correct or full serial number on the frame......not without 100% verifiably proof as to what that serial number should be and certainly not without having FFL/ATF involvement and direction for such.

Dale

tenntex32 · #60 06-01-2020, 04:08 PM

Funny enough, this whole thread reminds me of an one of my first Colt M1917 purchases.

It is one of my other arsenal refurbs and due to severe pitting/corrosion on the frame it's entire butt markings and Army number were obliterated and new markings and butt number were added during refurbishment. (It too has an added rework number (1870) stamped on numerous parts both inside and out. The "1870" rework number bears no correlation to the frame's true serial number nor the newly assigned "X1215" butt number applied during rework. (This Colt M1917 revolver is not an early enough example to have originally had a 4-digit Army butt number.)

It was a relatively inexpensive local find and when I first looked at it I almost declined due to the reapplied butt markings. Then it hit me, the actual s/n for the Colt M1917 is the one stamped on the frame/crane mating area. Sure enough it was there, intact and original to the gun. Once again on this example you can plainly see it's 4-digit refurb added parts tracking number of "1870", stamped on it's various parts, does not match it's actual frame s/n nor it's newly assigned and applied "X1215" butt number.

After researching I found that having to add an X-prefixed number to the butt of arsenal reworked Colt M1917 examples (no longer having a legible original butt number) was due to that being the only place on the revolver having that number from the factory, so they had to assign it a new butt number. The "X" shows it was an assigned new Army butt number, as it is not the original butt number, due to the original no longer being legible. (Unlike the case with S&W M1917 examples having the actual revolver's serial number stamped on the butt as well as on 5 other separate parts, so as being able to positively determine it on the S&W if the assembly numbers match on the frame and yoke...…..and if the serial number is still legible on the yoke.)

Dale

tenntex32 · #61 06-01-2020, 04:21 PM

And here are a few quick pics of my third reworked Colt M1917 having added numbers applied during refurbishment. Once again the 3-digit number (432) applied to various parts does not correlate to the revolver's true frame serial number nor it's Army butt number.

I would hate for someone to think that the later applied rework tracking numbers, stamped on various parts, would somehow correlate to any M1917's true frame serial number. While it may exist simply due to coincidence I have yet to see one in person. Of course that doesn't mean it can't occasionally happen with thousands of revolvers going through rework and refurbishment, but once again I feel that would truly be coincidental.

I can see I really need to add one or two arsenal reworked S&W M1917 examples to the collection, but for some reason decently priced/decently conditioned examples of such have somehow eluded me thus far!

Dale

Hondo44 · #62 06-01-2020, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenntex32

I know not of this "gun registration" you speak of as Texas does not have gun registration.
Dale

LOL !! Oh sure just rub it in why don't 'cha.

Seriously, it may not be too long before I'm your neighbor if you'll have me. This People's Republik of Kalifornia get's more dictatorial and insane by the day! My wife passed away on Valentine's Day (of all days), so I have a lot less strings holding me here now! And several good gun buddies in Texas.

Hondo44 · #63 06-01-2020, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenntex32

That being said I have stopped several shops/dealers from using the wrong s/n on the 4473 form due to them assuming rather incorrectly an assembly number or Army butt number was the gun's actual s/n. (Think both Colt and S&W examples here.)

The "16" stamped on numerous parts of the OP's revolver was simply a random number used for tracking during rework. It could be argued very accurately that it is simply a coincidence that the "16" is also the last two digits of the cylinder's s/n for the OP's example. I have 3 Colt M1917 reworked examples having added numbers applied during rework. None of the 3 examples' added parts tracking numbers correlate to the guns' actual serial numbers nor their butt numbers. I'll attach a few pics of a reworked Colt M1917 having a two-digit added number of "17" on various numerous parts. You can plainly see the added two-digit number does not correlate to it's actual s/n nor it's butt number.

It just occurred to me that a 2 digit # is counter protocol in my understanding of arsenal rebuilds, especially w/o the usual R and/or S stamp(s). But it could very well be a sign of a Colt factory refurbishment: these seemingly random #s used at the factory have a source:

Colt’s factory used a "drawer number" when a gun is sent back for rework/repair “if” the gun is also refinished:

The "drawer number", usually 2 digits, could be more, was stamped during some time frames on every major part of a Colt returned to the factory that was also refinished (it’s not a date), to match them with other parts from the same gun and remarry them in an assigned drawer of the same # for reassembly. This "drawer #" can be, but not always, followed or preceded by a B for blue refinish or P for plated. This is not to be confused with the assembly or “bin" # on the loading gate and frame, a similar system used to this day when guns are originally manufactured.

tenntex32 · #64 06-01-2020, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

It just occurred to me that a 2 digit # is counter protocol in my understanding of arsenal rebuilds, especially w/o the usual R and/or S stamp(s). But it could very well be a sign of a Colt factory refurbishment: these seemingly random #s used at the factory have a source:

Colt’s factory used a "drawer number" when a gun is sent back for rework/repair “if” the gun is also refinished:

The "drawer number", usually 2 digits, could be more, was stamped during some time frames on every major part of a Colt returned to the factory that was also refinished (it’s not a date), to match them with other parts from the same gun and remarry them in an assigned drawer of the same # for reassembly. This "drawer #" can be, but not always, followed or preceded by a B for blue refinish or P for plated. This is not to be confused with the assembly or “bin" # on the loading gate and frame, a similar system used to this day when guns are originally manufactured.

I am not doubting that there was some method to the madness with regards to the application of added rework numbers to parts. It most likely had to do with two (or more) revolvers not ever having the same added rework numbers while physically in the building for rework. Of course they most likely "recycled" the rework numbers as reworked revolvers left and others needing rework came in.

What I meant by them being random is they in no way shape or form correlate to the serial numbers nor butt numbers on the many reworked M1917 examples I have personally seen or inspected. Most likely occasional coincidences may have happened with them though.

I have seen reworked examples with as large as a 5-digit rework number applied to various parts. I have also seen examples that had 2 completely different arsenal rework numbers stamped on the various parts. (These examples get real busy looking numbers wise!) This could only indicate it was reworked at two different times and each time it was received the facility added their own parts tracking number(s) and disregarded any previous serial numbers, butt numbers, and rework numbers that may have been applied before it came in.

One other item of note, I have read where not all arsenal reworked examples will have the abbreviation of the arsenal where it was reworked. Some of the earliest examples to get reworked were only done at one single arsenal facility thus there was no need to mark on the revolver where the work was performed. Later, during WWII and/or just after, there were several arsenals that could have been tasked with reworking them thus they got markings on the frame exteriors as to where the work was performed.

Like all things regarding guns once we really dive deeply into the weeds we find there aren't always rock solid rules. There are generalizations but with exceptions to the expected norms.

With regards to the 3-digit rework number on one of my Colt M1917 examples it very well could have been applied by Colt as it did indeed did go back to Colt as it received a VP (Verified Proof) stamp near the left side/triggerguard while back there. Colt M1917 examples did not have the VP stamp applied when originally delivered to the government, but Colt did stamp them with a VP at a later time if received for various rework reasons. The example I am describing did get a blued refinish and has plastic medallioned commercial stocks which may also have been installed by Colt.(?)

It also has what I feel is an arsenal rework stamp of sorts on the right side of the frame too so it's anybody's guess as to who did what. When I look at my several all original non-reworked numbered Colt M1917 examples none of them have anything marked on the left forward frame where this one is marked with a "T". One of my other rework numbered Colt examples is stamped with a "Y" in the same area as this one's "T". (My third rework numbered example has no letter or abbreviation on the frame but may have simple been a very early reworked example that did not receive an arsenal stamp of sorts on the frame.)

I don't discount that there is a possibility that the VP marked Colt example could have been arsenal reworked and then afterwards sent to back Colt by a civilian owner for beautifying and/or tightening up. (I have actually seen a reworked example having the later Colt rework applied VP stamp as well as the AA arsenal rework stamp right above the Colt VP stamp. That example did not have a commercial look to it and exhibited a typical WWII'ish rework finish.)

I've attached a few more pics of the Colt M1917 revolver that went back to Colt (due to now having the VP stamp) but also exhibits indications of possible arsenal rework due to the "T" stamp on it's right side. (It has the "432" rework number stamped on its various parts.)

I have also included a pic of the second rougher condition reworked revolver, with the arsenal rework applied X1215 butt number, and having a stamped "Y" on the right forward frame, as well as having the rework number "1870" on it's various parts.

My third Colt reworked example, having just a 2-digit rework number of "17" on it's various parts, does not have a VP stamp applied by Colt, nor does it have an arsenal stamp on the left side frame. But it definitely has an arsenal parkerizing refinish look to it and not a Colt factory refinish look.

Dale

iskra · #65 06-07-2020, 11:24 PM

Below my post-WWII Model 1917; several info pix. Leftward barrel orientated, SN 20959*, notably without "S" prefix; otherwise with the right side large S&W logo and "Made in USA" nomenclature. All visible matching except of course grips.

I've learned a bit in this Thread and with thanks! *Especially info re pre/post era SN/barrel orientation-read; significant nuance of which I was unaware! Special Thanks Jim!

May I also just suggest that legal discussions pertaining to specific instances, are either discussed only as hypotheticals or even better, addressed in a separate, dedicated Thread. Such without specific identifiers of actors or objects. Seems to me a matter of privacy.
Best!
John

StrawHat · #66 06-08-2020, 06:43 AM

Nice looking revolver. Is there evidence of a lanyard stud in the base of the grip frame?

Kevin