Long time reader first time poster. Please excuse my lack of computer skills.
I traded for this 1917 the other day. While cleaning it with my glasses on, I noticed the serial number on the crane appears to have possibly been modified. So I tore the revolver apart to find 5 different serial numbers but 4 of the items had a perfect 16 stamped on them. No serial number on the butt, except the (16) under the grip on the frame.
Can anyone please tell me (1) if this pistol is legal to own (2) any information, manufacture date and history.
Thanks in advance!

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More pics, I can send more if needed.
Thanks!

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On a revolver that old, THE OFFICIAL serial number is located only on the butt of the frame. Here are two examples, both 45 ACP.

The first is from a Military 1917. The second from a Model 1950 Military. I will try to find and post a 1917 Commercial as they also i clude the lanyard loop.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Welcome to the forum. A very interesting 1917 that you have. I will be interested myself in hearing what our experts have to say about it.

So the stocks, the cylinder, and the barrel come from different guns.

Does either one of these three numbers, 45404, 20837, and 21316, match the serial on the butt?

The number in the yoke area is an assembly number of no legal relevance. Only the butt number has to be there for the gun to be legal. The other parts don’t have to match either; that just affects collector value.

No serial # on the butt. Only 16 on the grip frame.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

"No serial number on the butt, except the (16) under the grip on the frame."
Is there any evidence that there may have once been a SN stamped on the butt that was removed by filing, machining or polishing?

Duh. Just found that in the OP’s post. Thanks Jim!

I don’t think the 16 is a lot of help

Okay, I'll say a few things...……

First off, there should be 6 matching factory applied serial numbers on an all-original S&W M1917. They are found on the butt (the revolver's actual legal s/n), on the barrel flat, on the rear cylinder face, on the rear facing flat on the yoke, on the backside of the star extractor, and on the backside of the right stock.


There are 3 places one would find a matching factory applied assembly number on an all-original S&W M1917 revolver. Two of them are located on the "flats" where the frame and yoke mate when the cylinder is closed. A third is located on the backside of the sideplate normally found stamped in the large recess.

If I had to take a WAG I would say your example having the "16" on various parts has been through some sort of rebuild/repair process. The "16" was added due to all of the mixmatched serial numbered and assembly numbered parts used by whoever/whatever did the work. (In an effort to keep them together.)

I have several Colt M1917 examples that have been through arsenal refurbishment/refinishment and they typically have added rework numbers stamped all over them. Many can be found on the internal parts once the sideplate was removed. Carefully remove your sideplate and look to see if any large parts such as the hammer and trigger have the same "16" stamped on them as well.

The added "16", nor the factory applied assembly number at the frame/yoke would would not normally be considered the revolver's legal s/n. Only the factory applied s/n on the butt is the legal serial number given to the revolver by S&W. If for some reason the butt s/n was legally removed then it might/should have been re-applied, possibly on the frame under the stock if for some reason the butt was no longer deemed appropriate for one reason or another. (Or so I have heard may be the case by many people much wiser than I.)

As for the extreme legality of such I will leave those things to the true legal eagles here as I am not a practicing legal expert.

HTH,
Dale

At least the 16 on the grip frame makes it legal because you have a "serial #" stamped on the actual frame!

You have what's commonly referred to as a "mix master" gun. Parts from several guns were put together to make a functional gun.

The frame is an original military frame, we can not say when it was made except WWI production. But since it has the GHS inspector stamp on the upper left side of frame, instead of the flaming bomb, and the GHS precedes approximate serial # 43894 which was manufactured in 1918.

Either the barrel #20837 or cyl/extractor # 21316 could be the original serial # both of which were also made in 1918, or neither could be original.

I don't believe it's an armory rebuild: the butt # would not be removed and it doesn't have the typical armory stamps:


Arsenal Rebuilds: If there’s an extra large stamped # up to 5 digits (sometimes preceded with an R and/or S) in the yoke, yoke cut out, under the barrel, in one, two or all three places, it’s an arsenal # indicating an arsenal rebuilt gun. The R may be found on the frame left side as well.

Examples:


Photo credit: Doug4566


Photo credit: Doug4566

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Looking closer the 16 on the crane is directly opposite of the first serial number that appears worn and have the exact same wear marks on both sides.

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On a sidenote,

The large "S" found on the frame, cylinder, and barrel tells us that this was an early era S&W military contract M1917. The serial numbers found on the barrel and cylinder, while different, are somewhat close and in the early'ish production period. (low 20,000s) Later in production the large "S" would later change to an "Eagle's Head" with small number on S&W M1917 examples.


Look carefully at the factory assembly number (assuming it's still present) on the yoke flat that mates to the frame flat when closed. If the yoke factory applied assembly number matches the opposite factory applied assembly found on the frame then we could deduce that the serial number found on the rear facing flat on the yoke (as viewed through an empty chamber) would have been the same serial number applied to the frame. Remember, once again, we are not talking about the later applied "16".

I've attached a generic pic of where to find the factory applied serial number on the yoke. (Pic not from an M1917 but it will be in the same place on an M1917.) Once again if the factory stamped assembly number on the yoke matches the factory stamped assembly number on the frame then they both should have had the same serial number from the factory.

Where are my manners...…...welcome to the S&W Forum!

Dale

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Prehaps a Spainsh copy?? Certainly not a post war unless WWI ?? Just saying. Might pay to be sure. All American handguns had/have serial numbers. AFT can, if requested supervise the stamping of a serial number if all else is legal and there is NO evidence of serial number tampering. JMHO

tenntex32 is precisely right.

Do the yoke assembly #s match, not including the #16? And if so, then the gun's frame 'official' original serial # is on the rear facing side of the yoke as shown in tenntex'32's photo!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Bare with me I'm a slow reader and trying to keep up.
I don't see any numbers inside except 16 inside the cover. There is a 16 stamped on the trigger.
Thank you so much to all of you for the detailed information.

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The number on the back side of the yoke doesn't match anything either, other than the 16 on the inside.

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Few people know about the serial number on the rear facing flat on the yoke. On older S&W revolvers it's an easy way to determine the original serial number of the frame if for some reason the frame's serial number has become "unreadable"...……..and the assembly numbers match on the yoke and frame.

That being said, since the OP's star extractor and cylinder have the same serial number, my "guess" is the yoke may also have the same serial number.

If that is the case then the OP simply has a U.S. military contract M1917 that has been through a rebuild/refurbishment thus having a relatively close s/n barrel installed...…..most likely having a better condition donor barrel, cannibalized from another damaged/destroyed M1917, installed.

The plain uncheckered service stocks were simply swapped out with the set of commercial stocks it now has, which was not an uncommon thing to have been done once the revolvers found their way into civilian hands. (Somebody somewhere would love to have those early commercial stocks if you decide to put a set of plain service stocks back on it!)

Dale

Wrong,

The serial number on the yoke matches the serial number on the rear of the cylinder and the serial number on the backside of the star extractor. I can clearly see that.

Now if the factory assembly number on the yoke matches the factory assembly number on the frame then the serial number of the frame should be/was the same serial number found on the yoke.

Can you look closely at the yoke, in the area opposite of where the frame assembly number would be and tell us what the yoke assembly number is? You may have to look very closely......but we need to know now if the frame and yoke have matching assembly numbers.

Dale

Think this could be a Spanish copy?
The trigger and fit are S&W quality. Ive never seen a Spanish copy but It'ss a darn good copy if it is.
Are my pics easy to see? Not sure how to make them jumbo like some of you.

It appears to me to match the cyl and extractor star!

Therefore # 21316 is the matching serial # original only to the cyl, extractor, and yoke, but not the frame.

Whoever stamped all the #16s obviously used the last two digits of the serial # for those 3 parts, to keep all the matching parts from being mixed up with other gun parts that were being reblued at the same time.

The reason that's there's no assembly # stamped on back of the side plate in the groove for the cyl hand where it usually was, unless there is, would be because the side plate was a new replacement part not ever used on another gun.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Here is a picture of the butt, i don't se any signs of a stamp. Is there a way to tell if it was reblued?

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No, not a Spanish copy! The copies never have all the details correct. Usually the shape of the hammer spur, the cyl release thumb piece, etc., are obvious as wrong as a dog **** in the punch bowl.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

No.

This is not a model generally found among the S&W guns copied in Spain, and the parts all have serial numbers and markings in the correct S&W fonts and sizes, which the Basques never did; the numbers just don’t match because it’s a parts gun, but these are obviously S&W parts.

Not a Spanish copy. It is clearly a S&W U.S. military contract M1917 example that has had some part(s) changes during rework, private ownership, etc....

Here are a few more pics of where you can locate all 3 (matching factory applied) assembly numbers. Once again, not pics of an M1917 but they will be in the same place.

Dale

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You guys are absolutely amazing, I can't thank you enough for your time and priceless knowledge!
Thank you so much!

Bare with me I'm a slow reader and trying to keep up.
I don't see any numbers inside except 16 inside the cover. There is a 16 stamped on the trigger.
Thank you so much to all of you for the detailed information.

Yup, the factory applied military/model markings and s/n that were originally on the butt have been removed. (By whom or why is anybody's guess.)

Just by chance, is there a stamping under the stocks/grips that may be more in common with the serial numbers found on the cylinder, barrel, etc...? I know you said there was only a "16" but can you doublecheck one more time on the grip frame just to be sure?

Found a 3 digit serial number inside the cover, looks like 727

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Nope, I can't see any numbers under the grips on the frame other than the16 and a letter Y.
The butt has super light machining marks that appear factory or at least very well done. Definitely was not sanded or filed.

So basically you have 3 different assembly numbers. Unfortunately there is now no way to determine the original s/n that was on the butt/frame as it's assembly number does not match the yoke's assembly number according to the information you have provided.

Definitely a bitster, as the barrel s/n does not match the serial number of the yoke/cylinder/extractor. The stock s/n doesn't match any other s/n and we now have no way of knowing what the frame's factory applied s/n was.

If this revolver has been purchased through licensed dealers then most likely the assembly number on the frame was used as the serial number similar to what we see on Colt examples. (On Colt M1917 revolvers the actual factory serial number is stamped where the frame and crane(yoke) mate similar to where we find the S&W frame assembly number. The "ARMY" butt number was not considered the revolver's s/n according to Colt. By contrast the "ARMY" number on the butt was also the revolver's true s/n on S&W M1917 examples.)

Well done but not factory original when shipped.

The superimposed "GHS" on the frame tells us your frame was a true S&W U.S. contract M1917 example that would have all of the expected butt markings and butt s/n intact when delivered.

I'll leave the legalities of using the factory applied frame assembly number, or the later applied "16", as the gun's serial number to the legal beagles. That usually devolves into a back and forth between those who say yay or nay. But to be absolutely technical the actual frame s/n has been removed and if the assembly numbers on the yoke and frame are different there is now no way to determine the original factory applied frame s/n.

Unfortunately, and knowing what I know about them, I would have most likely passed on purchasing it...…..but that's just me and of course others most likely/will feel differently.



Dale

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Thank you all again for the wealth of information! This was a fun advanced training course in S&W 1917 revolvers.
Would you consider it legal or anyway to make it legal to own?

Wrong. The assembly number on the yoke is different from the assembly number on the frame. (The assembly number on the sideplate is yet a different number.)

We have no way to "marry" the serial number found on the yoke/cylinder/extractor to the frame due to the different assembly numbers on the yoke and frame. The "16" was clearly a rebuild/rework number applied on numerous parts in addition to the parts where the full serial number would have been applied.

We are splitting hairs but I want the OP to fully understand that the original factory applied s/n has been removed, no doubt about that. Without matching assembly numbers on the yoke and frame we do not know what the frame's serial number was.

Whether or not the frame assembly number, or the later applied rework "16", can be used as a legal s/n can now only be open to interpretation. If the assembly numbers had matched on the frame and yoke then that would be in the OP's benefit with regards to interpretation from "others".

How do we prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, when the original s/n was removed? (How do we know it wasn't done post 1968GCA?)

Okay, okay...…….we're devolving once again. But I feel there are many who have a strong opinion about this either way so I'll shut up about it now.

Dale

You won't see any signs of the factory stamp it's been removed; that was the intention!

But the typical draw file marks (not machining marks, those will be rotary marks) left after a sloppy removal of the stamping, can easily be seen on one end, and not completely polished out.

Early after the war some owners of these guns, depending on if it was brought home in a duffel bag, or was bought from someone else, (but not usually if it was bought legally much after the wars as surplus), got nervous about the US Army markings, and your gun shows the result of that. With a sloppy cold blue application to complete the mess.

So the owner went from feeling guilty to actually defacing/removing the original factory serial #!

Of course in the early days and highly likely when your gun was refurbished, this wasn't a serious issue; numbers were relocated, changed, et. al., with no or little concern.

And although these days it's an entirely different emphasis and more serious issue, these old guns do not retroactively seem to raise legal "eyebrows". And technically your gun is legal with an actual #16 stamped on the frame and no one can identify when it was done. If it could be proved to be after the GCA of 1968, not good.

If you felt better, you could add the missing 213 in the same size/font/style since the 16 is clearly the last two digits of the cyl/ext/yoke serial #s.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

OOPS, thank you! Of course, you're right. Switching back and forth between too many different threads! Somewhere I got it in my head that the assembly numbers in this thread on the yoke and frame matched.

So only the cyl/ext/yoke serial #s match and they're clearly not from that frame. Corrected my post.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thank you!

Actually there are pretty simple ways to "...know what the frame's serial number was." Any of the following will work:


Methods to make removed serial #s reappear:

1. This can be done with nitric acid, or "nicodate" sold in coin shops. After application, the # will magically appear. It's actually exposing the compressed metal from the stamping appear in a contrasting darker gray to the surrounding metal.
Is this a legal serial number?

2. Another method is to bead blast the area where the s/n was with a very fine grit. Again it will show contrasting shades of gray.

3. Fry's reagent "serial number restoration fluid."
FRY'S REAGENT RESTORATION FLUID - 2 OZ Fry's Reagent Restoration Fluid - 2 oz. | ShopEVIDENT.com

Development of new reagent for restoration of erased serial number on metal plates - ScienceDirect
Where to buy: fry's reagent where to buy - Google Search

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Me personally knowing that according to S&W the butt number was also the revolver's s/n I would not have purchased it, traded for it, etc.....

That being said there are folks who say "they'd" never prosecute you for something so trivial such as owning an old revolver with a removed s/n. (Really? I wouldn't want even the slightest possibility of such happening.)

That old revolver is chambered in .45acp and just as deadly today as it was 100 years ago.

Now that being said if the assembly number, or any other number stamped on it for that matter, has been "incorrectly" adopted as the revolver's s/n does that now make it legit?

If that were the case why not remove the serial number from any stolen gun or any gun used in illegal circumstances and simply "adopt" the assembly number as the gun's s/n. (Or any other later applied stamped number no matter what the reason?)

You obviously see where I'm going with this. I simply would not want the headache if for some reason it could be determined that the original legal s/n was removed from the frame and there is now no way of determining what the original s/n was. And technically that is where we are now. (Of course you could try to determine what the removed s/n was by chemical means and see if the ATF would then allow that s/n to be re-applied. What happens if the true s/n, assuming it could be determined chemically, turns up in their database during the process?)

Now will they come beating down your door over this...….most likely not. But why leave the door partially open knowing otherwise? Would it be an aid in your defense if the assembly number was used (incorrectly) as the s/n during multiple transfers in the past...…..who is to say. Do M1917 examples have the wrong s/n used on the transfer paperwork? Most likely it happens all the time due to them having Army butt numbers, true serial numbers, assembly numbers, added rebuild numbers, etc..

I prefer not to have questionably legal items in my collection, no matter how insignificant others may feel it is. Especially since there are plenty of 100% legit M1917 examples out there.

I'll put my helmet on and await the "incoming"...….

Dale

Thank you again!

Jim,

I love you man I truly do but know this...….I would never make it a practice to go adding any numbers to any gun in an attempt to correct a missing/removed s/n without knowing 100% what the original s/n was and then only with ATF permission and guidance. (Nor would I even suggest such to others without them having proper ATF permission and guidance.)

In this instance we know not what the original butt s/n was. We have established that fact due to the mismatched assembly numbers on the frame and yoke.

I say this for the OP's benefit.

Dale

Great point, thank you Dale.
I can still trade back and get my S&W 360.
Knowing what I know now I wouldn't have considered trading. I will chalk it up as a good lesson to research more and make a better inspection, especially of the numbers. Im just glad there is a website like this and people like you that are willing to educate and help people like me.

Okay, I have to say this so I don't feel like the forum Debbie Downer or Negative Nancy......I do hope that you find a legit M1917 example and add it to your collection. I truly adore them, both S&W and Colt variants.

I too have more to learn so don't feel too badly about it. Thanks for the kind words but in this instance I may be the bad guy in some peoples' opinion.

Dale

Unless you get caught with it under some unlikely circumstances involving LE, no one will be the wiser. Even so, the probability of legal problems in having it in your possession is not quite zero. The main issue is that you will be unable to ever sell it through a FFL holder.

As an M1917 collector/accumulator I have to say that I was quite surprised by the fact that the U.S. Government didn't at least require more symmetry in how both S&W and Colt treated/marked the military contract revolvers with regards to serial numbers, butt numbers, assembly numbers, inspection and acceptance stamps, etc....

I get that it was wartime and they simply needed them as fast as possible, but it is a bit of a learning curve as to what one should expect to see on an all-original revolver when comparing a S&W M1917 to a Colt M1917. (And then there are the different markings and physical changes that took place throughout the production of both.)

But then again, that is what makes it fun to learn about them...…..and to sometimes buy them as you can afford to!

Dale

If you can still reverse the trade, you should, especially since this particular specimen offers little incentive to take any risks at all: It’s neither an heirloom with meaning to you, nor does it have any collector value.

The probability of any issues is low, and most FFL’s don’t know enough and would happily transfer this gun based on the number in the yoke. But why chance it with this gun?

Then by all means do so. I didn't want to be the party pooper by saying I would never have made the trade. But it's true, I wouldn't touch it and I'm very glad you can reverse it as well! There's many, many more and better examples of these to find.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

As far as the US Gov't was concerned, they did get the consistency they wanted; their # was on the butt of both Colt and S&W and all the inspector stamps they wanted and wherever they wanted.

The gov't couldn't care less about S&W's assembly #s or any other of their nuances.

Colt is the entity that complicated it by using two separate #s; their serial # in one place and a different gov't # on the butt, for both of which they also could have used their serial #, just like S&W.

There's likely more Colts registered incorrectly by the gov't # on the butt then there are S&Ws registered by their assembly # in the yoke cutout on the frame.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

But in all fairness, the issue seems to have been that the Army wanted new numbers.

S&W treated the Model 1917 as a new model, so fine. New model serials in the numerical era always started at #1.

But the Colt M1917, just like the M1909, was nothing but a New Service and was produced in that serial sequence. Thus the serial in the crane area. Had the Army agreed to just have that stamped on the butt, any duplication and confusion of future collectors and 4473-fillers-outers would have been averted

In all fairness, S&W bit the bullet with the Model 1917 Army by beginning it's serial range at #1. Smith precedents indicate all non-contract large N frames used the same serial range just like Colt's New Service.

All new model and different caliber N frames, i.e., 2nd model .44, 3rd model .44 (1926), 38-44, and the .357 shared the same serial range.

And in fact after WWII when the former Model 1917 production became the 45 HE Model of 1950 Military a.k.a. 1950 Army (pre model 22), its serial # range changed to be included in the generic N frame serial range.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Back in post 3 I said I would show a picture of a Commercial 1917 serial number on the butt frame. Finally took a new one and will post it for the OP so he can get an idea of what to look for in the future. All of these are ACP revolvers, from left, 1917, 1917 Commercial, 1950.

Very easy to see the revolver in post 21 has had the numbers removed.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.