Hello All,
Yesterday I put a Pre-war 38/44 HD on layaway the LGS. I will be picking it up pretty quickly though,, maybe as soon as this weekend. This example was made in 1937, 5" barrel, non matching later target stocks, and a fairly rough finish, however the action is very smooth, and lock up is good. I read up on the information in the SCSW 4th ed. on this model, and I have a couple questions about it based on what I read: This model seems to feature an extra spring loaded plunger on the yoke that I guess helps hold the yoke open for reloading? If I were inclined to pull out the yoke for cleaning and inspection, what is the best way to do so without loosing this plunger and spring, assuming they're still there? Also, should they not be present, i.e. a previous owner lost them, what, if any detriment might this have for the gun other than potential value? Finally, once out, what the preferred method of returning the yoke into the frame with these extra parts?

Thank you!

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With my brazilian 1917 I went through this also and on this forum learned how to remedy it.Mine has the hole in the yoke but no plunger or spring to be seen.I then, following instructions from members here, I did a spare with a piece on nail and a bic lighter spring. It worked and yes that system is intended to keep the cylinder open when the piece is upside down, easying the reloading procedure.Also when disassembling the yoke not knowing if the spring/plunger are there,first insert the gun into a plastic bag to avoid losing the small pieces altogether.

Regards, Ray

I am still waiting for my first prewar HD to get shipped to my FFL and I am looking forward to receiving mine made in 1931 and comes with a S&W letter but I thought the practice of S&W putting the extra (hold open) spring and plunger into N frames was stopped after the 19 teens. I have bought K frames form the early 1900s before 1910 to find them in the K frames. None of my K frames from after 1910 have them. So it would be interesting to hear from when this extra feature was discontinued on various sizes frames.

A bag works OK, but you can also put a finger over the end of yoke, as it starts to slide out of the frame. Keep your finger stationary, and let the yoke slide onto your finger. If the pin is still there, you will feel it.

To replace the yoke, slide it into its hole, up to the point where the protruding pin will stop any further movement . Using a piece of wooden dowel, depress the pin and spring with one hand, and with the other, slide the yoke into its final position.

Mike Priwer

This. I just use my fingernail to hold the pin in until it's captured by the frame.

It's not a big deal as long as you're expecting it.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

It's my understanding the yoke stop came into being as a device to hold the cylinder open with the gun on the bench (in response to whatever range command it is that calls for the gun to be placed on the bench open).

Ralph Tremaine

AND----recalling as best I can, the N frames had the yoke stop in all pre-war models---the latest of mine being shipped in 1941. I presume the K frames were the same, but my latest pre-war K frame was shipped in 1936. I don't recall the device being in any of my I frames. (I say "all pre-war models", but I had/have only target sighted guns------and I don't recall it being on any post war models.)

AND (again)-----I lied. I also have my father-in-law's M&P----bought new in 1920---a fixed sight version carried in the hip pocket of his overalls for approximately 60 years---with no yoke stop---and no hole or detent for a yoke stop, so it's looking like it was applied to target grade guns only---at least insofar as K frames go. (????????)

In Charlie Pate’s book “Secondary Handguns of WWII” Appendix “H” page 353, a memo from James Sullivan (Ordnance Inspector for S&W) says that the crane stop pin and spring were discontinued “...since approximately 1939.”

BEHOLD! K frame with a yoke detent. Mod 1902, 1st change:
So your target grade supposition has evidence.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

CYL/YOKE DETENT HOLD OPEN DEVICE:

In Brief:

• By Mar 10, 1919 change order: all cyl hold open detents in all frame sizes had been ordered eliminated. Therefore still found in pre 1919 “.38 M&P Model 1905 - 4th Change" and .32 HE 3rd Model.�However, likely due to many surplus Model 1917 yokes being used from inventory, they are still found in most N frames pre WWII, and even thru some post war Transitional N frame HEs because they were built on pre war frames.

More than you ever wanted to know:

A classic old feature to keep the cyl open when loading/unloading and prevent it from slamming closed if the gun is tipped to the right slightly and scratching the recoil shield with the extractor star.

The cylinder hold open device or detent was introduced on the very 1st hand ejector, the ".32 HE Model 1896, 1st Model" thru the “.32 HE Model of 1903 – 2nd Model” thru 1904. It was used and continued in pre WWI K frames beginning on the “38 M&P Model of 1899” thru at least the “38 M&P Model of 1902 – 1st Change”, and also the N frames beginning with the 1908 44 Triple Lock.

By the Mar 10, 1919 change order: all cyl hold open detents in all frame sizes had been ordered eliminated. However, likely due to many surplus Model 1917 yokes being used from inventory, they are still found in most N frames pre WWII, and even thru some post war Transitional N frame HEs.

Another example of old world panache Smith was known for that we won't ever see again. And very easy to add to any later model Hand Ejector.

Important Note: when you remove the yoke beware of the cyl detent pin and spring! If you aren't careful, it can launch across the room to no man knows where! If it's missing, that's likely what happened to it.


Plunger shown here in bottom of yoke and has a spring underneath it:


Photo credit: handejector



TO MAKE THE MISSING PARTS:
Although the yoke stop spring is available here: Smith & Wesson 1917 Revolver Parts, Schematics | Numrich
The yoke stop (pin) hasn’t been in stock for years.

If you have a parts stash of old parts, it's not difficult to substitute pins and springs that'll do the job.

Parts are too easy to make to hunt for original parts. Cut the shank off of a numbered drill that slips easily into the hole in the yoke. For K or N frame, pins are in the .540” to .570” length range. The yoke detent pin diameter measures .100” to .101”; and is dome SHAPE on one end. Use a BIC lighter spring cut to about ½”.

Install spring and pin with domed end out. You can experiment with different spring lengths for just the right tension. If the yoke pivots too tightly cut a coil or two off the spring.

To install a detent in a gun that doesn’t have one:
Drill the hole in the yoke hinge with a # 37 drill bit to a depth of .890" for the N frame, and cut the shank off of a #38 drill bit that slips easily into the hole in the yoke. Keep in mind that none of the dimensions are critical.

Use a sharpie pen to blacken the frame side of the hinge. With spring and plunger installed, install the yoke/cyl assembly in the full open position. Then remove yoke/cyl assembly. Center punch and drill the dimple shown above at the back end of the inscribed line made by the detent pin in the black ink.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks all, sounds like its pretty straight forward, and will definitely be using the bag trick when I preform the initial disassembly. That said, I've only briefly handled the gun, but seem to recall that the cylinder did not have much, or any feeling of resistance when popped open, so im inclined to say that the plunger may not be present. This would however this will be my first prewar S&W revolver, as such I'm only making an educated guess as to how it should feel, so please correct me if I'm wrong. Being a purist, if the plunger and spring are missing it may bother me to the point of tracking one down, or maybe making a replacement as Ray and Hondo44 have suggested. I dont suppose this is a relatively standard part between the prewar K and N frames that I could cross reference from a different model if needed, is it?

Slightly off-topic story/rant time: I am an idiot when it comes to small spring-loaded gun parts, but on the flip side, very very lucky. You'd think I would have learned my lesson after the first time I had part fly across the room, and started using a zip lock bag, but again I'm a moron sometimes. I dont think it helps my obstanence that every time I've shot parts across the room, I've somehow manged to find them either. The latest example of this was just two weeks ago when I fired the plunger and spring from the cylinder latch in my 686-1 out of the frame not once, but twice before putting the whole gun in a bag for reassembly. The first release ended with the parts landing on the floor by my desk, the second time however, they flew across the room into my storage area, leading to a lengthy but nonetheless successful search on my hands and knees. When will I learn...

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It wasn't only Target models, my 1946 Bazillion model (of course built on early frame), still had the hold open.

My first "launched" part was the really teeny spring and detente on the windage adjustment screw, when replacing a sight blade. That one is really tiny, but thanks to a good magnet it was found. From then on the "bag" has been used.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Knew a fellow once who did a little shade tree gunsmithing and he had a 5 gallon aquarium on his bench to capture flying parts. Just turned it on it's side and put both hands and the firearm inside for assembly and disassembly. Easy to see through the glass and errant parts stayed inside. Haven't tried it myself, but it sounds workable.

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ol' country Jim

My M&P 3rd change .38 round butt, # 230842, shipped 12-16 has the device. Big Larry

A word of caution. If the pin is missing, I think making another out of a drill bit is not a good idea, because a drill bit is too hard, and will cut an ever-deepening grove in the frame. I think a nail might be better.

Regards, Mike Priwer

This had occurred to me, and was sort of thinking the same thing... What is the average hardness of a Smith and Wesson steel frame?

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I'm reasonably sure that the frames are not heat treated. The risk of warping would be too high, particularly 70 - 120 years ago. I don't know what the hardness is, nor do I know what the frame steel actually was. I'm sure that a modern high-speed drill bit is a lot harder.