High Master Score with a Bargain Bin K38 and Cheap .38s

[jareds06]

Picked this one up for about $600, it's a 5 screw K38. Came with the box and some orthopedic grips which I removed and replaced with a beater pair of K target stocks. In case anyone was not aware, there is now a Distinguished Revolver program through the CMP. It differs from the Distinguished Pistol Shot program by using the Presidents 100 Course of Fire rather than the standard National Match Course (2 slow fire strings instead of 1).

I shot a 351/400 on Friday in my first practice session for Distinguished Revolver since I bombed my match back in November. The winning score for that match was actually a 350, so I was quite happy with this score. Yesterday, I shot a 357 (a fitting score for a revolver if you ask me) which became my new overall personal best, including my best centerfire slow fire string of 94. Today I just shot a 360-10x, which is the cut off for a high master score and my new personal best. With no other information provided, I can only guess my trajectory at my next weekend will be even higher! Right?

Frankly I'm blown away. This is with a stock K38 and PMC Bronze, the 132gr FMJ stuff that's basically a copy of the old military loading. It's as accurate, or rather I'm as accurate with it as a SIG P210-6 I paid nearly five times as much for. It's taken me 2 months of serious practice to break 90% with the P210, whereas I've broken 90% with the K38, on a longer/harder course of fire in just one week and three practice sessions with it.

3/8/24 - First revolver practice session of the year 351


3/9/24 - Second practice, 357-8x


3/10/24 - Today's practice, 360-10x

[moosedog]

Nice going. Its addicting isn't it?

[Green Frog]

Didn’t you know those old revolvers are out of date? Everybody knows that no serious shooter would use such an antique in serious competition!

Of course, they’re all wrong, and a good gun is a good gun regardless of age or type. Like you, I’m finding more revolvers in my comfort zone. I am not and never will be the shooter you are, but agree wholeheartedly, revolvers (still) rule!

Froggie

[jareds06]

Originally Posted by Green Frog

Didn’t you know those old revolvers are out of date? Everybody knows that no serious shooter would use such an antique in serious competition!

Of course, they’re all wrong, and a good gun is a good gun regardless of age or type. Like you, I’m finding more revolvers in my comfort zone. I am not and never will be the shooter you are, but agree wholeheartedly, revolvers (still) rule!

Froggie

doesnt have a red dot or flashlight, not great for magdumping into trash at 3 yards.

edit: actually funny you mention that, a 360 would land a shooter squarely in the presidents 100 in any given year, and again, with a bargan bin k38 and cheap ammo! crazy

Originally Posted by moosedog

Nice going. Its addicting isn't it?

Yep, got my first taste of what it feels like to *win* a match last November. Consider me addicted. If I can continue to shoot these scores, I think I could go double distinguished (22 and Service Pistol) by the end of the year. Distinguished revolver matches are not as common unfortunately, really only would be able to make the ones at the National Matches and CMP Travel Games.

[weatherby]

Switch to some 148 grain hbwc loads and see what happens.

[jareds06]

Originally Posted by weatherby

Switch to some 148 grain hbwc loads and see what happens.

I have the dies and HP38, I just need to make some brass
Although i've been looking at the Atlanta Arms 38 WCs. Don't want to switch up my DOPE right now before a match though. Maybe in the time leading up to Camp Perry I'll switch to WCs.

[Protocall_Design]

That is the type of shooting those guns were made for. There is no reason that gun won't shoot a perfect score benchrested, and close to that offhand. Great shooting. Thanks for sharing.

[rct269]

"------------------magdumping into trash at 3 yards."

That's priceless---that's what that is!

Oh how often I've been tempted utter such words when the "magdumpers" display their targets shot at rock throwing distances! No guts though---and not even close to clever enough to come up with something even close to that gem!

Continued display of such results might well be deemed a public service---especially if you publish the double digit distances involved---and God forbid you should admit to standing straight up on your hind legs, and holding your gun with one hand. On second thought, they'd never believe it anyway.

I wonder if the magdumpers even know what the Presidents 100 is---and know how many try to make it in-----and know how really good those who don't make in really are.

With any luck at all we might get into a discussion of the difference between shooters, and people who shoot.

Oh well--------------

Ralph Tremaine

[sbrmike]

When I read the title, I said that is not surprising.

[Dave.357]

Great score , both your gun purchase
And your score on paper.
They may be old fashion but there
Is nothing that I can score higher with.

[target tech]

Not being real familiar with bullseye course of fire, I take it that’s 50 yards?

[BE Mike]

The NRA rules require a 158 gr. bullet, for Distinguished Revolver if I remember correctly. Are there any such ammo rules with the CMP? It is all one-handed, unsupported, right. Do you shoot single-action or double-action for timed and rapid fire?

[malph]

Smith sure made nice target revolvers back in the day.

[Green Frog]

The very first S&W I got and kept (back when I was collecting High Standard auto pistols) was a beautiful 1948 vintage K-38. My dad was clever enough to “trade” for it and hold onto it until I grew up in my tastes. He gave it back to me when I bought a matching K22 at auction nearly 30 years later. I’ve said it before, there’s a reason these revolvers had the word “Masterpiece” in their name!

If you want to really enjoy target shooting with a handgun, seeking out one or more of the target K guns is the best way to get there! Of course, the K32 has reached mythical status, and it’s modern usage is much more limited, but they will bring great joy as well.

Again congratulations to the OP for reaching the state of Handgun Nirvana!
Froggie

[jareds06]

Originally Posted by target tech

Not being real familiar with bullseye course of fire, I take it that’s 50 yards?

The B-6 (larger bullseye) is slow fire at 50 yards. 20 shots in 20 minutes
The B-8s are timed and rapid fire at 25 yards
Timed is 2 strings of 5 shots in 20 seconds
Rapid is 2 strings of 5 shots in 10 seconds

Originally Posted by BE Mike

The NRA rules require a 158 gr. bullet, for Distinguished Revolver if I remember correctly. Are there any such ammo rules with the CMP? It is all one-handed, unsupported, right. Do you shoot single-action or double-action for timed and rapid fire?

CMP is "any safe ammo." I'm sure a lot of guys are shooting powder puff WC loads on the line. I might consider doing the same after this upcoming match, at least for the short line. And yes, all one handed unsupported at 50 yds for slow fire on a B-6 and 25 yards rapid/timed on a B-8. I personally cock the hammer back every time in rapid fire as I believe most do, which makes it quite the exciting experience

[rct269]

I reckon these days most all competitors use two guns for what used to be called "three gun" matches. The (typical) "three guns" were a .22 revolver, a "centerfire" revolver (most all .38 Specials), and a .45 auto.

Nowadays, the two guns are a .22 auto and a .45 auto (used for both "centerfire" and .45 segments)------autoloaders simplifying your life in the timed and rapid fire segments. (And there are no arguments about making it in any of the timed segments---the targets turn to you to start---and away from you to finish---SNAP-SNAP!!)

Oh, you weren't finished? Better luck next time!

"Time waits for no man!"

Ralph Tremaine

[heeter3]

Nice shooting jareds06 it takes a lot of skill to shoot that well and it never hurts to have a quality S&W along for the ride.My Smiths never disappoint in their performance.Congratulations.

[jareds06]

Originally Posted by rct269

I reckon these days most all competitors use two guns for what used to be called "three gun" matches. The (typical) "three guns" were a .22 revolver, a "centerfire" revolver (most all .38 Specials), and a .45 auto.

Nowadays, the two guns are a .22 auto and a .45 auto (used for both "centerfire" and .45 segments)------autoloaders simplifying your life in the timed and rapid fire segments. (And there are no arguments about making it in any of the timed segments---the targets turn to you to start---and away from you to finish---SNAP-SNAP!!)

Oh, you weren't finished? Better luck next time!

"Time waits for no man!"

Ralph Tremaine

I believe that is the case, I'm not shooting 2700s at the moment but if I were I would be using 3 guns. A .22 auto, 9mm auto, and .45 auto. Although I think it would be fun to shoot a 2700 with all revolvers, would need a S&W 25-2 though.

Right now I'm just focused on going distinguished. If I keep shooting the way I do I think I could do it by the end of the year. Lofty goal would be double distinguished (22 and Service Pistol). Super lofty goal would be Triple (22, Service Pistol, and revolver) but i think the bottleneck there would be finding revolver matches.

[Green Frog]

The first person to explain 2700 to me shot a K38 for CF legs and a customized 1917 S&W for the 45 legs. He never explained why he used a Jim Clark Roger for rimfire. I’m guessing that if you have developed muscle memory to shoot 38 with a revolver, it follows that you’d be comfortable with a 45 revolver too.
Froggie

[BE Mike]

Originally Posted by jareds06

I believe that is the case, I'm not shooting 2700s at the moment but if I were I would be using 3 guns. A .22 auto, 9mm auto, and .45 auto. Although I think it would be fun to shoot a 2700 with all revolvers, would need a S&W 25-2 though.

Right now I'm just focused on going distinguished. If I keep shooting the way I do I think I could do it by the end of the year. Lofty goal would be double distinguished (22 and Service Pistol). Super lofty goal would be Triple (22, Service Pistol, and revolver) but i think the bottleneck there would be finding revolver matches.

Unfortunately, finding any bullseye pistol matches (precision pistol) is getting harder and harder. It takes a lot of determination and effort to reach distinguished. Good luck!

[MajorD]

I am a long time revolver fan and bullseye shooter, and that is great shooting. I always did better with revolvers myself, even though I managed to shoot enough while on a military team to make distinguished with a semiautomatic. Life has gotten so busy and unfortunately both my shooting time is limited ( I get only 6 days off a month) and have been focusing on other shooting disciplines lately. Also unfortunately my local club that ran bullseye matches decided to change them to a weekday, leaving me zero chance of getting there. ( somewhat understandable as bullseye is an old man’s game at this point and I think I may have been the only guy not retired that shot the matches!

[Eddietruett]

This is the setup Don Hamilton 3 time National Champion used at Camp Perry to set the record for 2700 in 1969. Note the 22 conversion is completely handmade and slide remains stationary. The Gun and conversion was built by Thelbert Almond from Charleston SC. Both still shoot unbelievably accurate today

[BE Mike]

The current record is 2680-159x, set on July 24, 1974, by Hershel Anderson, with 159 of 270 shots hitting the "X" ring. It makes the common bragging posts seen online these days laughable, when some dude shows his groups fired from a rest at 15 ft. or 21 ft. The "big boys" shoot at 50 yds. and 25 yds. standing, one-handed and unsupported!

[jareds06]

Originally Posted by BE Mike

The current record is 2680-159x, set on July 24, 1974, by Hershel Anderson, with 159 of 270 shots hitting the "X" ring. It makes the common bragging posts seen online these days laughable, when some dude shows his groups fired from a rest at 15 ft. or 21 ft. The "big boys" shoot at 50 yds. and 25 yds. standing, one-handed and unsupported!

An absolutely insane score, I don't think a gun locked in a machine rest could score much better. I've only been competing since November and I think where I'm at at around 90% is a reasonable goal for most people who have a firm understanding of the fundamentals and put in serious practice for the amount of time I have this year. The difference between 90 and 95% is huge, the difference from 95% and 97% is even greater. Then the difference between 97% and 98% is even greater than that! You can see how stringent it gets just by looking at the list the NRA keeps of the 2600, 2650, and 2670 club. If I can get to the point of being even a 95% shooter consistently I would be happy.

[Breakaway500]

I’d be happy to shoot that well at 50 feet! Bravo.

Kinda why my favorite gun is a shotgun.

. I hate it when my obnoxious BIL comes over snd outshoots me with my own guns.

[BE Mike]

Originally Posted by jareds06

An absolutely insane score, I don't think a gun locked in a machine rest could score much better. I've only been competing since November and I think where I'm at at around 90% is a reasonable goal for most people who have a firm understanding of the fundamentals and put in serious practice for the amount of time I have this year. The difference between 90 and 95% is huge, the difference from 95% and 97% is even greater. Then the difference between 97% and 98% is even greater than that! You can see how stringent it gets just by looking at the list the NRA keeps of the 2600, 2650, and 2670 club. If I can get to the point of being even a 95% shooter consistently I would be happy.

It takes a special kind of personality to shoot and excel at bullseye (precision) pistol matches. For most folks it requires a huge commitment in time and money. It certainly isn't for the average guy or gal. It can be a great foundation in handgun marksmanship that can carry over to other shooting sports, too!

[jareds06]

Last chance to shoot before my matches Saturday. Another new personal record for the revolver.

[pasound]

I own two. A 1947 K-22 and a 1948 K-38 Masterpiece. Both shoot better than I ever can. (Tested off rests and sandbags.)
Great shooting, jareds06. Those scores are definitely prize winning.
You wrapped the grips with electrical tape?

[jareds06]

Originally Posted by pasound

I own two. A 1947 K-22 and a 1948 K-38 Masterpiece. Both shoot better than I ever can. (Tested off rests and sandbags.)
Great shooting, jareds06. Those scores are definitely prize winning.
You wrapped the grips with electrical tape?

Yes inside out electrical tape as per Bill McMillan's advice in the "famous" instructional video put out by the Marine Corps. I found that sometimes under recoil my hand would slip upwards or sometimes when cocking the hammer back in rapid/timed my hand would not always go back to the same place before/after cocking. The tape helps keep the hand in the exact same spot in timed/rapid.

It took a few iterations but finally found how I like it. I started by just wrapping the grip with inside out electrical tape, this worked OK until it started to slip upwards under recoil. Tried again but wrapping it tighter, worked better but still slipped. Third iteration I took the stocks off and wrapped only the right side so the tape is mechanically held from slipping upwards while serving the purpose of keeping my palm in the same place under recoil. Works fantastic like this and I can still flip it over to show the "good side" without the tape

[ameridaddy]

Originally Posted by jareds06

Last chance to shoot before my matches Saturday. Another new personal record for the revolver.

That's some really good shooting!
That grip tape brought back a memory of when I shot my K38 in a police revolver bullseye league in the 70's and 80's. I always had a hard time maintaining a consistent grip cocking the hammer in the rapid fire stage, and wrapping my grip in old-fashion friction tape, or grip tape or "tar tape" as we called it as kids helped a lot.
Tar tape is a childhood memory for me - we used it on baseball bat grips and repaired our scuffed up baseballs with their seam stitches unraveling with the stuff until they were about 7/8 sized and just a black lump.
Thanks for the memory.
I'll bet your score will go up when you do a load workup for your gun with 148 gr wadcutters.

[jareds06]

Originally Posted by ameridaddy

That's some really good shooting!
That grip tape brought back a memory of when I shot my K38 in a police revolver bullseye league in the 70's and 80's. I always had a hard time maintaining a consistent grip cocking the hammer in the rapid fire stage, and wrapping my grip in old-fashion grip tape (tar tape) helped a lot.
Tar tape is a childhood memory for me - we used it on baseball bat grips and repaired our scuffed up baseballs with their seam stitches unraveling with the stuff until they were about 7/8 sized and just a black lump.
Thanks for the memory.
I'll bet your score will go up when you do a load workup for your gun with 148 gr wadcutters.

Looking at a lot of old photos of revolvers used for competition back in the day, grip tape seems common. I don't think I saw anyone using it on the line at the revolver match I attended in November. It might be one of those "lost" tidbits of knowledge that needs to be rediscovered by people. The CMP rules explicitly allow for it so clearly someone was aware when they made up the rules approximately 1.5 years ago.

[Bald1]

I just sold a 14-2 to a fellow forum member for a lot less. I probably should have thought that through a bit more. Lol

[Doug M.]

Most of us cannot shoot up to the potential of the K38 and other Smith target revolvers. I do pretty well, but not at all close to the possibilities.

[BE Mike]

Not to knock your achievements, but isn't a Master score still a 95% average? A High Master score is still a 97% average, isn't it? A 90% average with a revolver is still a very high achievement.

[jareds06]

Originally Posted by BE Mike

Not to knock your achievements, but isn't a Master score still a 95% average? A High Master score is still a 97% average, isn't it? A 90% average with a revolver is still a very high achievement.

The CMP has different classifications for EIC/"Service" pistols/revolvers and Match Pistols since there are considerably more limitations placed on those types of handguns than on Match Pistols. For Match Pistols ie shooting the 2700, 97% would be high master, correct. The people who can shoot service pistols at that 97%+ are ones who are winning the NTI, P100 NTT etc

[jareds06]

winner!