Can you help me identify?

Doubledown1233 · #1 07-08-2020, 05:03 PM

Hi - any help would be great! new to this forum, but I think I came to the right place!

-no model number, or visible ctg stamp on barrel

-hand ejector
-no S on butt, just 98XX
-6" barrel
-fixed sights
-3 side screws, 1 in trigger guard

sorry if the pic is upside down. can't figure out
any help would be great! Thank you for your time!

WCCPHD · #2 07-08-2020, 05:16 PM

That appears to be a .44 First Model, AKA Triple Lock (although it came in some other calibers). It is wearing a much later set of pre-war Magna grips. While not original, they are extremely coveted and quite valuable.

Very soon the experts will be along to give you a better assessment.

handejector · #3 07-08-2020, 05:19 PM

You have a 44- 1st Model, aka the Triple Lock.
The barrel is almost certainly 6-1/2" if you measure from muzzle to cylinder.
There are 4 screws on the sideplate. One is under the grips.
The gun is from right around WW I. Let's guess 1912 to 1916. Only a letter will tell you for sure.
The grips are not original and date to the late 1930s.
It is a desirable and valuable gun.

daddio202 · #4 07-08-2020, 05:20 PM

Do you know what caliber the gun is?. I am leaning towards it being a pre ww2 heavy duty in 38 special. The barrel may be a replacement as it should have a ctg stamped on it. Those grips are fairly nice and desirable worth a pretty penny just by themselves. Looks like somebody has put a stationary block in the rear sight area. A picture of top of gun and of side of gun with cylinder out to see in ejector shroud area too. More pics please. After looking at pics again.....?.?
Oops I missed the third lock. Nice triple lock in 44spcl!!!

Doubledown1233 · #5 07-08-2020, 05:40 PM

Thanks for all the help!

No caliber or ctg markings anywhere. Barrel is smooth on both sides. Top of barrel has markings and proofs. Attaching more pics now.

Old_Cop · #6 07-08-2020, 05:45 PM

I think that my leg is being pulled ever so gently.

handejector · #7 07-08-2020, 05:47 PM

Thinking a little more-
Your gun MAY be a .455.
In WW I, S&W converted over 800 .44-1st Models to .455 to supply the Brits with desperately needed guns. This may be one of them. The serial numbers of those guns ARE known, so if you care to share the full serial number, we can check to see.

ALSO- post a pic of the chambers seen from the rear of the cylinder. If it is a good pic, it is easy to ID .455 chambers.

Jim Watson · #8 07-08-2020, 05:50 PM

Agree, a "Triple Lock."

It has one of those dovetailed fixed sights that turn up every now and then. I have not heard of the factory doing that, maybe the gunsmith also provided the Magna grips.

Caliber probably 44 Special, but I would be poking some different cartridges at the cylinder to see if something else chambered.

Doubledown1233 · #9 07-08-2020, 07:08 PM

Thank you everyone- I really appreciate all the help. I loved this gun before knowing what it was, but obviously things are getting interesting?

Here are some more pics.

rocknroad · #10 07-08-2020, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doubledown1233

Thank you everyone- I really appreciate all the help. I loved this gun before knowing what it was, but obviously things are getting interesting?

Wow, another "what do I have here?" gem.

This is one of the things I love about this forum. Someone comes here not knowing what they have and, boom, they find out they're sitting on a treasure.

Very cool gun. I would love those pre-war magnas on my 38-44. My originals disappeared decades ago.

Wow.

daddio202 · #11 07-08-2020, 07:41 PM

Looks like a .455 that was converted to 45 long Colt by recessing the Chambers. One of the best way to convert one, a 455 Webley and 45 LC should chamber and be able to shoot. Some value lost but should be an accurate and long lasting shooter!

JSR III · #12 07-08-2020, 07:50 PM

Just a little tip when counting screws. In most cases if there is a trigger guard screw and an upper side plate screw then it is a 5 screw. The upper side plate screw and the trigger guard screw were the first to go.

hibbs · #13 07-08-2020, 08:02 PM

I also have a triple lock that came without caliber or S&W markings on sides of the barrel. The top of the barrel has the same markings as your gun. Had a hell of a time determining the caliber as there were two steps in the cylinders. Turns out a 44-40 cartidge fit perfectly. Luck was on my side.

Richard

StrawHat · #14 07-08-2020, 08:49 PM

I flipped your photos for you.

Kevin

handejector · #15 07-08-2020, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doubledown1233

Thank you everyone- I really appreciate all the help. I loved this gun before knowing what it was, but obviously things are getting interesting?

Here are some more pics.

9860 is not on the list of converted 44-1st Models, but 9857 is. Your gun was obviously one of the 44s converted to .455, and as another said, it has been reamed to 45 Long Colt. It is a pretty decent job.
The list of converted 44s is not all inclusive. I remember one or two other converted 44s turning up in recent years that were not on the list.

It would be worth spending the money for a letter. I don't see any Brit proofs, so it likely shipped somewhere else, which is odd since they were rushing to get guns to the Brits.
An interesting gun.
It would be nice to see closeups of the rear sight.

Doubledown1233 · #16 07-08-2020, 11:17 PM

Here are pics of the rear sight.

DWalt · #17 07-08-2020, 11:20 PM

Looks for all the world like a .455 TL converted to .45 Colt. As a shooter, that's not necessarily a bad thing as .45 Colt ammo is much more readily available than .455. The SN gives it a probable ldating of 1915-16. While the grips are not period original (probably from the late 1930s), they are still very desirable.

Muley Gil · #18 07-09-2020, 12:07 AM

Can you post a side view of the rear sight also?

Doubledown1233 · #19 07-09-2020, 12:20 AM

Here you go

Muley Gil · #20 07-09-2020, 01:12 AM

That's a neat-o Triple Lock!

Doubledown1233 · #21 07-09-2020, 01:28 AM

Thank you to everyone who helped me identify this. I’m sure there were some eye rolls or sighs like “is this guy for real?” I’m new to revolvers and collecting. This forum is incredible. I’ve learned so much today and continuing to learn reading older and other posts.

As I said I’m new to collecting. I shoot, and train to shoot. Classic revolvers have always fascinated me and I’m learning as I go. I respect the history and love the look and feel of these older Smiths.

Thank you for your help and knowledge. I’ll definitely be reading more. And posting other acquisitions as well!

Thanks !

StrawHat · #22 07-09-2020, 05:39 AM

I like that rear sight. It gives me ideas for a couple of my revolvers.

Kevin

red9 · #23 07-09-2020, 08:23 AM

That rear sight is not the work of a home gunsmith. It looks very similar to that on previously identified military target (drift adjustable) TLs. However, to my limited knowledge, all factory military targets came with a Patridge front sight. Definitely worth a letter.

Bob

handejector · #24 07-09-2020, 10:41 AM

YES, you should letter that gun.
Letter Form

Do NOT just fill out the form.
EXPLAIN that is reamed to 45 Colt.
DESCRIBE the rear sight.
INCLUDE some good pics, especially of the rear sight from ALL angles.

Check the back of the right grip for a serial number. There will probably be one from another gun.
Check that all serial numbers match. We know the butt and cyl match from your pics.

You should find them:
1- Butt
2- Back of cyl
3- In barrel shroud (way up front in the deep recess for the ejector rod knob)
4- Back edge of yoke facing the cyl (hard to see)
5- Back side of extractor
6- Back side of the cam on the yoke

You can see some pics of those numbers here-
The Young LT's Triple Lock .455

JSR III · #25 07-09-2020, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Thank you to everyone who helped me identify this. I’m sure there were some eye rolls or sighs like “is this guy for real?” I’m new to revolvers and collecting.

NEVER worry about posting questions regardless of how you think people will react. We all learn from these discussions and nobody here on the forum knows everything about everything S&W. Many collect different models and are interested to learn about a model that they don't collect. We all learn something new here everyday. Many of us seniors because we forgot what we learned here last week.

Keep asking and we'll all keep learning.

Hondo44 · #26 07-09-2020, 09:21 PM

Doubledown1233,

That's a nice find!

You have something a little different than most not to mention the custom rear sight!

THERE ARE FOUR BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. Three of the versions, 1., 2., & 4. include some triple locks, but those in the 4th group are actually the same as 1st versions. “If” roll marked with the cal., all that are roll marked are only marked 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer 455 MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book’ references to caliber marking of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.

Yours is a 1st variation as described by Hand Ejector with additional detail here:

1. “.44 HE - 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’, .455 chambering: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or any unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Model", original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1104 to 10417. Per Neal & Jinks. Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].

The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/124 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.

The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918. Some are not seen with lanyard swivels.

The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it’s unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative and likely just a story), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, again, if they were converted by the factory at all.

Your #9860 is listed as one of the 23 sold commercially and shipped to Shapliegh Hardware Co., in St. Louis, MO, Jan 1st, 1918 on page 203, "S&W 1857 -1945" by Neal and Jinks, and converted to 45 Colt as described above. Obviously w/o British marks and in that caliber, it never went across the big pond to see action in WWI; not shipped so late, 1918.

The rear sight is similar to a factory installation for Bisley matches which only allowed adjustment for windage, although it is not. More on that next post.

Hondo44 · #27 07-09-2020, 10:31 PM

Rare factory variation called the Military Target for use in British matches like Bisley where only drift adjustable allowed.

The more I look at your sight, the more it looks like a factory sight, just shorter than the .44 shown below. It's quite possibly different because of the 45 chambering. I know the standard factory front sights of .455 and .45 Colt chambered TLs are taller than the .44 Spl. You definitely need a letter for your gun!

Factory sight for a TL .44 Spl here Post #7:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-han...#post137992489

Increasingly more Interesting Triple Lock *update*-bisley-tl-drift-adj-sight-jpg

Increasingly more Interesting Triple Lock *update*-bisley-tl-drift-adj-sight-jpg

Photo courtesy of Masterpiece

Increasingly more Interesting Triple Lock *update*-bisley-tl-drift-adj-sight-1-jpg

Photo courtesy of Masterpiece

Increasingly more Interesting Triple Lock *update*-bisley-tl-drift-adj-sight-2-jpg

Photo courtesy of Masterpiece

daddio202 · #28 07-10-2020, 04:06 PM

Looking at the rear sight pictures from both the op and Hondo44, those rear sights do look identical to me (except the height of course). A letter from S&W describing the original poster's rear sight and cartridge conversion as being done at the factory would be a GRAND SLAM. I think the value of the gun would rise exponentially. Making it a true factory original oddball of sorts. I am very excited to see doubledown1233 get a letter from S&W confirming his gun as one of the 23 and one of very few with factory military windage adjustable rear sights! Get that infirmation into the mail STAT!!

Doubledown1233 · #29 07-10-2020, 09:42 PM

Sorry, wasn’t able to log on but I was reading all the posts helping me out with more facts about this beauty. Again, thank you everyone for the knowledge. Looks like I have a letter to send away for! Very exciting!

Handejector- The numbers do match all around, on all the points and parts you mentioned. The grips are obviously from another gun as you said. Those numbers are very hard to read. I can only make out a few numbers. I have pics of those.

Thanks all! This forum is so great!

Hondo44 · #30 07-11-2020, 09:24 PM

Penciled grip #s:

Sometimes a photo is needed to “see” the penciled #. "Seeing" the penciled serial number is made much easier using the Gimps Threshold tool: 8.52. Threshold

Photos here: SMITH & WESSON DA 45 MODEL 1917 COMMERCIAL

Hondo44 · #31 06-12-2023, 07:53 PM

Doubledown1233,

Since this thread ended I have determined that your TL is very special indeed:

#9860 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, Bisley target model with Military Target style rear sight (windage adj only), one of the 23 factory converted to 45 Colt and sold commercially, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

All 23 serial #s of these guns are listed as converted from 44 spls in the 44 serial # range at the factory. In this group of 812, the rest were converted to 455; 666 for the British for use in WWI and the remaining 123 shipped commercially to Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd. London England.
S&W 1857-1945, by Neal & Jinks, pg 203.

19leben · #32 06-12-2023, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Doubledown1233,

Since this thread ended I have determined that your TL is very special indeed:

#9860 - NO CAL ROLLMARK, Bisley target model with Military Target style rear sight (windage adj only), one of the 23 factory converted to 45 Colt and sold commercially, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

I love reading posts like this! I wonder if OP still owns the TL.

Hondo44 how’d you confirm configuration of this one?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hondo44 · #33 06-13-2023, 12:06 AM

Perhaps he’ll let us know. He’ll get a notice of this new post if he’s still a member of this forum.

I believe it was a member of this forum who lettered another gun from this group and posted the info some time ago. I documented the information. But it wasn’t until today as I was reviewing my .455 notes that I came across the link to this thread I had saved. Therefore I updated it.

murphydog · #34 06-13-2023, 04:54 AM

I sent a PM and email to the OP about the updated information, we'll see if he responds.

Doubledown1233 · #35 06-14-2023, 08:06 AM

Hello everyone! Yup I’m still here. However, I sold that old gun for 150 dollars. Just kidding

This firearm is still very much safe and sound. Thank you for the continued knowledge as well as the message and update! True gents

DARE · #36 06-14-2023, 11:44 AM

Doubledown1233,
Good that you are still with us and still have the gun. Did you ever get a letter for the gun?
If not, you definitely should. We would all love to see the letter.
As Hondo44 said, your gun is very special. Known to be one of 23 that were factory converted to .45 Colt.

Hondo44 · #37 06-17-2023, 09:06 PM

Updated my post #31 with more detail.