Hi Y'all,

There have been a few recent threads about taking out nice, old N frame shooters for a day at the range. How many of you guys are enjoying this great experience?
Anybody shooting their Triple Locks or 2nd/3rd model Hand Ejectors?
What are your favorites/loads?
44 Special?
455?
How about converted 45 Colts?
Fixed sight vs adjustable sight issues?

I used to have a shooter grade 455 2nd model HE, and honestly seem to miss it despite having more modern stuff. I think I need a nudge in the right direction...

Thanks!
Jim

I have a couple of early N frames I shoot on a semi-regular basis. The first was my EDC for a while, a cut down Brazilian Model 45 ACP. The second is a later acquisition, a Second Model Hand Ejector or Model 1917, built in 1918. Both like hardball or equivalent loads and both are good shooters.

Kevin

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All the time. In fact, they are about all that I do shoot. And I shoot a lot. Sort of interesting too, I have fewer issues with these guns than anything else made postwar. Sight regulation is a non issue. Favorites are 357’s, 44 special third models and 38-44’s. My only concession is that I stick with cast bullets and don’t hotrod them unnecessarily.

That reminds me of my impression of my old 455. Despite the basic fixed sights, it ran great. Very smooth, perfect timing, fantastic trigger. I shot it with nothing but cast bullets and light target loads: 3 gr Bullseye with 180-200 gr SWCs.

It was a satisfactory introductory gun for centerfire Bullseye club league use. But, I foolishly sold it along with some other stuff to buy a "real" Bullseye pistol.

Jim

If I'm not shooting a 22/32 HFT or a black powder .45 Colt SAA at the range, then it's usually a few shooter grade Triple Lock revolvers in .44 Special.

I never push the limit when I reload. Right now, I like 11.5 grains of 2400 behind a Lyman cast bullet 429667. I did have some jacketed bullets given to me and used them all. I prefer firing cast bullets.

I will mention that I would be careful with loads as published in the Hornady Book of Handloading. A published load from this manual sent a jacketed bullet such that it lodged at the nuzzle of a 4" barrel 1/2 way out. It was not any reloading error on my part.

6.7 grains of Red Dot behind a 180 grain 44059 bullet has worked well in the past. I have never had problems with published loads in the Lyman Reloading Handbook.

What good is a thread such as this without the obligatory Triple Lock photograph?

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I really like the form and function of my 455s, but not so much the accuracy. The balance and weight is just right for me and the action is so smooth that you cannot feel the release of the hammer in single action mode. Truly great design and manufacture. One reason I like the old S&Ws is that all were hand finishes, no stamped parts and I would guess that almost every one that came out of the factory was set up perfectly, even the war models.

My three favorites guns to shoot are a very nice original 455, a re-chambered 455 that shoots either 455 or 45 Colt, and a shaved cylinder 455 to 45 ACP. No matter how much or how little they have been shot in the past, all three feel almost identical in hand and in operation. I probably shoot the parkerized gun the most with handloaded 45ACP/full moon clips. I will be trying my cast bullets and have some 45ACP with the 265g LRN-HB ready to go.

Now that I have 455 RCBS mold and cast perfect hollow-based bullets, my patterns have tightened up. I can consistently hit a 6" dueling tree at 20 yards (with a little Kentucky windage) and the old style bullets are plenty heavy to flip the targets. I am currently shooting 4 grains of Unique under the 265 LRN-HB in my 455s.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

My two Triple Locks are shooters so I shoot them. One of my favorite things about them is introducing younger shooters to old guns. Both are .44 Special.

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I won't own a gun that I can not shoot. Here is one that I sold, a 2nd Model Hand Ejector 44spl. It was always fun to shoot, and more accurate than the slightly pitted barrel would lead you to believe. Those are my home rolled 44 specials 240gr LSWC (and a few wayward HP) with some SR4756 behind it. Don't recall off hand how much, but it was slightly less than Elmer used, and more than a cowboy load.





Minute of paper plate accurate This was shot at 25-30 feet, standing, free hand

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On the Oak Savannah

You guys have some nice old S&W big bores! Good to hear they're still gettin' out.

I'd like to recommend a great book, PISTOL AND REVOLVER SHOOTING by A.L.A. Himmelwright. (Bullet casters might recognize that name...). Anyhow, the book was published in 1930, but likely contains much writing a decade or so older. It gives a great number of insights into revolver shooting back then. There is a boatload of period reloading data (no hot rod stuff).
And, lots on match shooting.
Himmelwright was a big-wig with the USRA (United States Revolver Association) and there is a pile of detailed info. The matches sound great! The courses of fire are fairly short (30 shots, usually), but there a are many more matches than you would guess: Police revolver, Military pistol, Free pistol, 22 revolver, etc...some matches allow target sights, some don't!
So, if you had a fixed sight Triple Lock you could compete in the Military match using .455 or .44 Special!
The targets and distances (i.e: 50 yds slow fire) are just as tough as the National Matches today, but with strict limitations on "trick" guns.
Couple "teaser" pics attached....

Jim

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Frequent range toys:



50' DA slow fire with above


This one is even more accurate (no target photos , sorry I'm usually with the kids when the target TL goes to play)



The shiny one gets some mileage too


I'm not as good with the .455 2nd model- I suspect I need the longer Mk1 cases


Edit: Here's the .455 in focus

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Enjoyable thread and posts. I like shooting the old HE's but since I haven't reloaded in a while, my limit is usually .45 ACP. Currently I'm without any .455, etc. and stuck with the 1917 variety; US/Brazil/Commercial, etc. and most of them have chopped/swapped barrels. Nothing fancy but will try to get a pic later.

Hey jack the toad,

If you want to get unstuck from any of those ACP revolvers, let me know!

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I take all three of my 44 specials out. I have a triple lock, a second and a third model. First target was the 2nd model. The next was from the triple lock.

Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

I have a Webley 0.455 Commercial made just before WWII (the dealer who sold it to me did not know what he had) and a couple of cut 0.455s one Webley Mk VI and one Enfield MK VI (yes they do exist). Plus a Mk II S&W still in 0.455. I was lucky enough to obtain the spacers that allow 0.455 Webley cartridges to run in cut MKVi's Using the 0.265 grain hollow base bullets from Jet Bullets in Canada, they still will deliver 2-2.5" accuracy at 25 metres in single action. Will I dispose of them...NO. Dave_n

Jim,

I don’t know if these are old enough to qualify for what you consider old but they are both older than Himself so that makes them old, to Himself.

First up is my postwar 38/44 Heavy Duty built in 1950 and a short action model. This one dotes on the Skeeter load.

Next is a Model 1950 Military in 45 ACP. Another one that likes hard ball and equivalent loads.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

I have never considered myself a pistolero, more of a rifle guy. I still like to shoot them and never have truly competed. I'm always upset when I offer a guy to shoot one of my pieces and he shoots it better double action than I can single. Don't get me wrong I've "qualified" with a number of revolvers and pistols, just never spent the time and energy required to pull of true one ragged hole accuracy. I'm usually satisfied with myself when I keep them all in the center of mass of my target. I spend more time shooting .45 ACP/AR in a brace of cut down Model 1917's, one is a Brazilian the other the an old war dog. I also shoot a Model 24-3 Lew Horton model , which I carry more than the others.

Two recent acquisitions, a pre-war Outdoorsman and a set of KB "Ropers". This is my first pre-war N frame, sure is a sweet shooter. Only had time to get it to the range once, but it shot very well with Winchester White box FMJ's. Hope to work up some loads soon with some Keith style cast 158 grn. loads.

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shrade

Very Nice! I've got a fantastic pre-war Outdoorsman too! It gets homecast bullets exclusively.
Yours looks like it has a King's Bullseye hammer!

I’ll take my 455 second model in the 45 colt out if it ever gets below 110 degrees

6string:
From what others have told me Kings marked their hammers, this one is not marked, so it may be someone's interpretation, however it is done very well.

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shrade

I did. Recently took my 1917 Commercial, 1917 Brazilian, and Model of 1950 44 Special to the range - along with a couple of other oldies but goodies.

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Send lawyers, guns & money...

#1 daughter, being a young'un, likes the Model 1950's





Kids these days.....

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

One of my favorite pre-war N frames. Factory nickel 38/44 with Pointer grips. This was the first 38/44 I ever purchased thanks to 1Aspenhill.

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Tim
SWCA #2697

Absolutely mine go to the range! One of my favorites is a military Model of 1917 (made in 1918) that I shoot alongside my Model 25-2. I also shoot my re-nickeled .44 HE 3rd Model (Model of 1926, W&K; shipped in early 1927). I wish I could talk about shooting my TL or RM, but I haven't been able to add them to my collection...yet!

My only early N frames are a 1937 made commercial 1917 and an ex BSR converted to .22lr. I have shot with them in the past. Not this year though thanks to the "virus" thing. The shooting range has already reopened but you have to make an "appointment" first, and you are limited to a one and a half hour range time. Besides the the range is located in the area(great Lisbon) where the new virus cases have been high since we "beginned opening up" I can wait a little longer.

I enrolled myself in a competition(it's with 9mm semi auto) scheduled for the 25th. But it is rumored it will be cancelled.

Final note. Every gun I own has seen or will see range time. Some more than others.

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Expect the unexpected

Tell me about those Pointer grips. Do they help correct point of impact due to the fixed sights?

Hi Mario,
Since you are very proficient in precision pistol events, yet also shoot cap & ball, how do you find the 1917 fits in to your shooting style?
Jim

How do you feel about the difference between the 1917 and the 25-2... i.e: weight, balance, sights, target trigger vs service trigger?

Jim

To tell you the truth. I can shoot well anything that goes bang.

No false modesty here.

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Expect the unexpected

That I can answer. The 25-2 feels noticeable heavier(still didn't get to shoot mine, but I have dry fired it). That said, it will most likely absorb recoil better.

Edit. I just love the weight and balance of the 1917. It just "feels right" in the hand.

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Expect the unexpected

Had a 44 2nd Target out just the other day.

Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

The biggest hassel I have is which ones do I shoot today. Like most of the guys here ,"If I own it, I shoot it" or I fix it to shoot. I love the old pre-war N frames and their smooth actions, everything in my safe from MKII .455, 44Spl Triple Locks, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd models are all shot on a regular basis. I reload for all models and calibers. And now that Starline makes brass for the .455 Webley S&W I reload them with the conical cast bullets (hollow base). Here is a photo of my last acquired Triple Lock on her first range trip after extensive rebuild.

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Back in BC (Before Covid) days, a few of us shot an informal class at our cowboy action range we called "Sgt. York". "Any" revolver was staged loaded with 5 rounds with three reloads of 5 rounds each required "on the clock". We generally follow the shot sequence (such as "sweep 5 pistol targets twice", or "double-tap five rifle targets, etc.) called for in the stage description, but in honor of Sgt. York's fabled tactic of first engaging those in the rear so those leading the charge wouldn't notice the number of their colleagues that just went one-eyed, we always engage the rifle targets first.

For several years now, my favorite revolver to use in this game is one of my Brazilian .45s with the square-notch rear sight. I have competed with a Colt military issue 1917 but found the Colt frame a bit large for double-action work.....Modern DA revolvers, Victory models, 1917s, and many others have showed up from time to time., but "Sgt. York" class has provided happy times and the chance to compete with old double action S&Ws for many of us.

“Pointer” was just the trade name for these prewar plastic grips made by the W. Murad Co. in California. They came in Ivory, Black and Brown all with the distinctive floral pattern. This pair has had the inner mold voids filled with lead. It gives them a weight similar to real ivory. They were on this gun when I got it from 1Aspenhill and were there when he originally got it. The gun and grips have been together so long I can’t bear to separate them.

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Tim
SWCA #2697

Great minds think alike...

Although not personally asked about the difference between the lighter 1917 and the Model 25 I would allow that if I needed to shoot the best I could with a .45 ACP revolver I would get out my Model of 1955 Pre-25. If I'm going to carry it and maybe get it out and shoot for the fun of it the cut-down 1917's fit the bill. As a late bloomer to the fun of shooting .45 ACP revolvers I have to say few target guns are as much fun to shoot, the recoil in a heavy revolver is practically nothing. I've always been a big fan of .44s and consider the 2nd Model H.E. my favorite, the 24-3 fits the bill for carry but I think the big .45s are more fun to shoot cheaply. I hope I didn't step on this thread...

Here is another of my N frames that gets out to play. This is a Model of 1950 Military 44HE. It was given the King's treatment back in the day. I still need to get it properly zeroed. It gets my hand loaded 240gr LSWC.

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On the Oak Savannah

Hi Kinman,
Sorry. The question didn't occur to me until Kurusu's post later on.
Thanks for elaborating on the various 45s, and for the 44 vs 45 in N frame consideration. Yes, both 44 Special and 45 ACP/AR offer much enjoyment. I got a pile of vintage 45 AR brass that needs to get in on some action.
You don't see balloon head 45 Auto Rim every day (especially in nickel)!

Jim

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My old 2nd model Hand Ejector in 455 may be gone, but I still have a few cartridges in my collection. Maybe time to re-scratch that itch!

The old boys I shoot with claim the only way you can get a full load of black powder in the case is to use the old balloon head cases. I don't see a problem using the balloon head case as long as your using black but have heard you can run into problems with smokeless, I guess if Elmer was still around he could testify as such. Those cases are pretty cool anyway. I shoot BPC in 45-70 and 45-90 and was wondering how they got 70 grns in the case, one of the old boys said that they were balloon head cases. Winchester cases are the thinnest, allowing the most powder but I still struggle to get 70 grns in. Swiss formula works a bit better, I am using that in the 45-90 and have plenty of room for more powder although am finding it unnecessary, 75 grns seems to give me excellent accuracy with room to spare, that is 1-1/2F.

How about some pictures?

You know we love pictures. Right?

And to be consistent.

My 1917.



The modified BSR. It's out of the scope of this thread, but got mentioned.



The 25-2 currently in "jail" waiting for it's ID card.



And since we are at it. I too have a Webley Mk VI. And it's a sweet shooter. It has only been fired with commercial .455 from Fiocchi so far, and It will do even better with reloads

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Expect the unexpected

All of my target sighted ACP revolvers are also short action so it is not apples to apples. As much as I like my long action revolvers, there is a reason the short action was developed. I do have some fixed sighted ACPs new and old. The newer ones are balanced about the same but the short action is the winner in the accuracy department. The specific revolvers tested are a Model 1917, a Model 1950 Military, a couple of 1917 Commercial Models and a Model 22-4 built to emulate the 1917 Commercial. The short action beat the long action and the 22-4 beats them all.

In the following photo all were tested except the Model 25-2. In a test including the 25-2, the weight soaked up recoil but got heavy toward the end of the round.

Kevin

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Unshared knowledge is wasted.

Well, I took my Micro sighted Transitional Heavy Duty out for a range date on Sunday.
It's outside of my own OP, but it is a long action pre-war style.
The Micro sights are really nice. The click adjustments are very crisp, much like a BOMAR sight. As many already know, Micro was formed after WWII by former King's Gunsight employees.
They did similar work, such as this conversion.
It may be hard to tell, but the rear sight is very nicely inlet into the top strap.

43 posts and not one RM or NRM. Well I must rectify that! These matched 4.5” RM’s travel up to the West Virginia cabin several times a year for light workouts...most recently with Gold Dot 38 Special 125 GR GDHP which was recently on sale for half price at Target Sports USA.


If interested, you can read more about this matched pair at Leo H. Rice’s 1st Year 4.5” Consecutive Reg# RM Matched Pair

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Terry Lester

Fantastic!

For my part, I didn't post one because I have none.

Best I could manage was a 27-2. And consider myself lucky to be able to get one.

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Expect the unexpected

Yep! best I can manage in .44-40 and .45 Colt is 35 grs(And there is already slight compression). But I use Swiss #1, it is a considerable bang (chronographed the .44-40 slightly over 1000 fps out of a 5 1/2 barrel with the 200 gr LFP bullet).

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Expect the unexpected

I use 3F Swiss which is much finer and allows a full case capacity in most revolver cartridges. It also provides a much cleaner fouling in cap and ball revolvers, 3F Olde Eyensford is a couple bucks a pound cheaper and does not provide the sharper bang that Swiss does. 1F Swiss is an excellent musket or shotgun powder but in my experienced much to course for light work below .54 caliber in rifles. I use 1-1/2 Swiss in my .45 muzzle loading target rifle, 45-70 and 45-90. I do know of a guy that puts 1/8" compression on Swiss and swears he has not issues, I haven't competed with him or seen him shoot for that matter. I like to install a .030 vegetable wad on top of my charge then with a wooden dowel use just enough pressure to completely seat the wad, adjusting the depth of the bullet so that it rests "comfortably" on the wad and no crimp, just neck tension.

It's not 1F Swiss I use. Swiss # 1 is 4 F, I even prime the pan of my flintlock with it. And Swiss #2 is 3 F.



Edit. My competition load for 25 meters in the .44 Remington is just 13.5 grs of Swiss # 1

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Expect the unexpected

Holy Cow...I only know of one other guy that used 4F in the main charge for his rifle. Later he said "That 4F is great, it even re-cocks my rifle for me." I've heard somebody say that it was used as a main charge for gallery loads but way to hot for my taste, a little bit goes a long way. I've tried Swiss Null-B priming powder and found it to be the cleanest but no worth the extra price. For all my flintlocks I use Goex 4F, a little dirtier but just as reliable. We've experimented with just about everything over the years and the one thing that rings true is that nothing is scared nor chiseled in stone.