I think I read somewhere that S&W quit making the .38-44 revolvers in 1966... When did ammunition companies quit making the .38-44 heavy duty loads.... I figure it may have had something to do with Lawyers and potential law suits over somebody using it in a light frame .38 special piece.... Buffalo Bore, I believe, catalogs a stout loading for it, but None of the traditional makers... Thanks for any info............

They didn't quit, they renamed them as +P cartridges. This gave a consistent head stamp designation that could easily be identified, even in the absence of the original box.

Sure would like to sneak up on some "chronograph-able" quantities of original .38-44 ammunition.

Yeah, me and probably a bunch of other guys.

Brian Pierce and Mike Venturino have fired original ammunition and published duplication data in "Handloader" magazine. Personally, I prefer to use pressure-tested data that were published by Hodgdon. The SAAMI limits are 17,000 and 20,000 psi for standard and +P 38 Special.

There are a couple of the boutique ammo makers like Buffalo Bore and Underwood which still make the .38-44 loads much like the originals, and duplication loads are easily handloaded. The major ammo manufacturers (Federal, Remington, and Winchester) no longer load the old .38-44. I believe they stopped in the mid-1970s. The older reloading manuals have recipes, 2400 was the usual propellant given for doing that back then. There may be better propellants available today for the .38-44, but probably not by much. Today's +P .38 Special loading is not the same as the .38-44. From the major manufacturers, it uses a lighter bullet at a lower MV. You might say correctly that the +P loading replaced the .38-44, but by no means does it duplicate it. The most common bullet used with the original loads was a 158 grain metal capped bullet. It looked like a FMJ, but the bore bearing surface was lead. Presumably, that gave it better performance in penetrating auto bodies. The .38-44 load was developed mainly for that purpose.

The old factory ballistics tables show MVs in the low to mid- 1100 ft/sec range using 150 or 158 grain lead bullets, but of course that will be different from different revolvers and barrel lengths. I don't know the peak chamber pressure of the old .38-44 loads, but I used the QuickLOAD computer program to estimate it, and came up with something in the 25,000 PSI neighborhood.

Many of the old loadings are both difficult and potentially hazardous to duplicate. Some of the old factory loads were real screamers. Both liability and improved instrumentation have played roles in the adoption of modern loads.

This works great in my pre war HD, just like old school .38-44.

38 Special +P 158 Grain Hard Cast Keith – Underwood Ammo

Some customer chrono data- bet it's over 1200 fps out of my 5"

Chrono data:
Ruger SP 101 2.25 bbl= 1071 FPS, for 402 FPE.
S&W Model 64 4.0 bbl=1167 FPS, for 442 FPE.
Overcast, mid 60s temperature, humidity 77%

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

I have mentioned this in other postings, but back in the day, there were no warnings from either the gun or ammunition manufacturers against firing .38-44 ammunition in lighter-frame .38 Special revolvers. It is mentioned in the earlier Remington ammunition catalogs only that firing their Hi-Speed (.38-44) .38 Special loads in light frame revolvers would result in objectionable recoil. This is from the 1936 Remington ammunition catalog:

25,000 PSI sounds very probable...it'd expect it would have to be around there to deliver the rated performance with the 158 Grain Bullets.

Colt and S&W did claim at the time, that all their current model range of .38 Specials were good to go with the .38 Heavy Duty etc Cartridges, but I doubt many people tried them more than once in the small frames.

Six Inch Barrel - ideally, with an N Frame or Colt New Service - I think they ( or some of them anyway, ) clocked in the lower to mid 12s...

Of course, barrel lengths will make a difference in MV, but there are also other factors, the most significant being barrel-cylinder gap variations from revolver to revolver. You can take two otherwise identical revolvers, and it is not unusual to see 50 fps variations (or more) in average MV between them using the same ammunition. I don't remember which edition, but one of the older Speer reloading manuals has a fairly lengthy discussion of that phenomena. I have personally tested a 6" K-38 against a 6" Colt 3-5-7 with several .38 Special handloads. Every time, the Colt will have an edge of nearly 100 ft/sec (average) MV vs. the K38. The Colt has a visibly thinner barrel-cylinder gap, almost invisible, but there could also be other considerations, such as slight variations in bore dimensions. Point is, don't believe anything you see in a reloading manual or ammunition manufacturer's literature regarding MV. The only way to know MV for sure is to measure the MV of your loads yourself.

Couple of older boxes.

This is completely incorrect. The 38/44 ammo was much, much more powerful and loaded to WAY higher pressure than +P. The +P is usually a 125 grain bullet at 925 FPS (a mild target load in my book) and the 38/44 was a 158 grain bullet at around 1,140 FPS.

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No life story has happy end.

Here's an old ad for the Chiefs Special indicating 38/44 ammo could be used in it. Elmer Keith wrote about shooting 38/44s in a Chiefs Special back around 1955.




BTW- I have a reloading manual from 1970 that includes a load to duplicate the 38/44. A 158 lead SWC at 1,140 FPS. I don't recall if there's any warning about not using it in regular 38s.

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No life story has happy end.

I see pressures all the time for the 38 Special, and for the +P, but nobody ever mentions the +P+, which I believe was a military round. Anyone have info on it?

Attached Images

38 Spcl.jpg (85.0 KB, 41 views)

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John
SWCA #3401 SWHF #737

There is no SAAMI standard for +P+ and therefore no official designation. A number of manufacturers make ammo with higher pressure than +P. To my knowledge, the military never adopted +P+ but simply milspec what they want.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Nope.
Clearly states Military and Police and shows a six shot cylinder.

I doubt Elmer was reading many owner's manuals.

Jeff Cooper cited a load for the that he admitted was "Contributing to the delinquency of bandleaders." but was needed to get the snubby "off its knees."

The +P or +P+ PGU 12b USAF ammo was considered to be hard on the guns. By the time they pushed through the Beretta, 40% of the revolvers sent in for overhaul were considered to be irreparable.

the old Lyman manuals said the 38-44 loads were intended for large frame revolvers like the "N" frame and the Colt single actions. it didn't say anything about the smaller frame guns but I don't think they would have lasted very long. I have loaded some of those loads with 12 grains of 2400 and the 173 grain Keith bullet (over 1,200 fps) and I can tell you it is a really strong load in a M-28. no way would I shoot them in a smaller frame like a "J" frame or the small Colt. a "K" frame would be as small as I go.

See Speer Reloading Manual #13, p. 522. Industry standards have changed, and both 38 Special and 357 Magnum are loaded lighter than they were in the 1930s. The fact that these changes took place make my observation simply only part of the story.

Well, I guess that depends on whose +p. See my post above.

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SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Unless you were in the USAF you probably didn't know what the PGU-12/B was, as none of the other U. S. military services used it. In summary, it had a FMJ 130 grain bullet with a nominal MV of around 1150 ft/sec from the Combat Masterpiece (Model 15) revolver. Therefore, it was not far removed ballistically from the .38 Super. The maximum chamber pressure specification was 24,000 PSI. The propellant used was called HPC 23 (which I believe was Unique), 6.0 grains. The unusual feature about it was the extra-heavy crimp, and the bullet was essentially locked in place by rolling the case mouth over the bullet ogive. It was the only revolver cartridge ever made at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (although it was also loaded by Winchester under contract). It was loaded only in the late 1970s and for some time into the 1980s. Finding examples of the PGU-12/B cartridge, either individual or boxed rounds, is very difficult today. Most remaining ammo was destroyed by the USAF. In fact I personally witnessed the destruction of a whole case of it at Dyess AFB.

Remington ceased the 38-44 S&W SPL headstamp in the early to mid 30s, it was in the 1930 remington catalog.

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38-44heavyduty.com

For early loadings (1931-38), Remington used the REM-UMC 38-44 SPL headstamp, then changed to REM-UMC 38 SPL HS (Hi-Speed). Winchester used W.R.A. SUPER 38 SPL and perhaps other variations. Western used SUPER-X 38 SPL, and again, may have used some slight variants. Peters used PETERS 38 SPL HV. Other than for earlier Remington boxes, the ".38-44" designation was not used on box labels, usually .38 S&W SPECIAL (Super-X, Super Speed, Hi-Speed, or High Velocity depending on manufacturer). At one time I put together a list of all the documented different .38-44 headstamps I could find (and there were quite a few of them), but I don't know where it is. Additionally, some early .38-44 cartridges used Large Pistol primers.

Regardless of the manufacturer, they always included something in the headstamp to distinguish the .38-44 loads from ordinary .38 Special loads.

I may have grabbed the wrong ad. But I have seen one for the Chiefs Special listing 38/44 ammo among the cartridges it could shoot.

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No life story has happy end.

For the Chiefs Special, early ads said "Any .38 Special commercial cartridge, including high velocity loads."

If you can find it, I would appreciate seeing it again. Someone posted it more than 10 years ago with the J frame and I looked for it for hours a few years later, to no avail.

Not a great image.

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I was not aware of the AF load described, but would not have cared about a 130 grain ball load at any velocity anyway. Better than a nasty look and hope, but not near as good as a heavier SWC, even at standard velocity.
The only market of which I was aware for +P+ .38 was LE, at a time when the average command officer was afraid of allowing .357 Magnum, so they more or less got there with the +P+. Isn't it just wonderful that the mindless fabrications about LE are still out there, just different, and that command officers are still spineless?

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NHI, 10-8.

High velocity 38 Specials, aka 38-44, disappeared from ammo catalogs after 1973. Remington makes the last reference to its 38-44 “Hi-Speed” load #6538 in 1973 - here is link, please page to handgun ammo section.

https://cartridgecollectors.org/cont...alers%20PL.pdf

These later 38-44 158 gr RNL loads, as Remington’s #6538 38-44, would get approximately 1,075-1,100 FPS in actual 6 inch revolvers. Today’s 38 Special +P 158 gr lead SWCHP would be at least 100 FPS slower, approx 970 FPS in 6 inch tubes. I duplicate Remington’s #6538 38-44 with Lyman’s 358311 using 11.0 grs of 2400...for use in 357 Magnum heavy frame revolvers.

I use the Lyman 358311 in my "Factory Duplicate" standard pressure .38 special loads. For my hotter .38 Specials and.357 Magnum loads I use the 358156 SWC with a gas check.

Maybe I should push the LRNs a little just for fun?

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Where do we go from here?

My 358311 has 11 BNH and I get no leading. My load (11 grs 2400/158 gr 358311) obtained an avg 1,053 FPS from my 4 5/8 inch Ruger Blackhawk. By the way, 6.0 grs Unique with same bullet avg 1,035 FPS...basically ballistic equivalent to the 11.0 grs 2400 albeit with more pressure...I’ll stick with the 11.0 grs 2400