I did really well with lots of littles 5M SPPs and 2M LPPs for a steal price..but got 3 guns in the show. Two happened to be S&Ws though. One was a fairly nice M-66-1 that had obviously been a police carry. Came with the holster etc. May have belonged to a lady LEO as it is very small sized. The other was an odd gun to me... It is an S serialled Highway Patrolman in 6 inch. It is in very good condition with what looks to be original stocks. What is odd about it is that it is a 4 screw HP with the serial in the S1799XX range. It is not marked as a M-28 and no serial inside the crane. I have to believe it is a transition gun from the year they were model numbering the guns. This one doesn't have those markings. Is this a rare happenstance from that time? I also have a 4 screw M-27(no dash) but it is marked of course. The gun is in 96% condition or so. and I did get it for a very fair price. Just wondering if anyone would have some info on the question and maybe an approx ship date on the gun. I'm not a long barrel type guy but couldn't help buying this one. I actually paid less for it than the 66. The other gun I happened to get away with was a "ahem" Colt. It is an almost pristine Woodsman(not a Match Target). Not my cuppa joe but it will make for great trading material. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I will try to get a couple of decent(for me) pics to post tomorrow...after the trip to the dentist

Well good for you!! Sure nothing around here. That fool in Richmond has everything closed down and cancelled. Would love to find a MDL 28 in the 4" flavor. CONGRATS!!

Well now I have N frame 357s in 3 1/2, 4, 5, 6 and 8 3/8 inches...but one(6") is the Highway Patrolman. Sorry the idiot governor shut your state down. This WAS a small show but a good one. And people did wear masks etc.

Skeet 028

In a word, no.

HP #S1799xx was probably assembled in 1957, possibly early 1958. It would, of course, have a 4 screw frame. The upper sideplate screw was eliminated in 1956. It really isn't surprising that the frame is not marked as a Model 28. The model numbers were assigned in the summer of 1957, but were not used immediately. Implementation of new policies was a matter in the hands of the floor supervisor, and various factors drove all decisions about when to put the change into effect. We see non-model-marked guns still shipping well into 1958. There isn't really anything odd about the gun you picked up today.

The earliest model-marked gun that I have found with a confirmed ship date was a Model 29 that left the factory very early in 1958. I know of revolvers with no model number on them that shipped as late as June, 1958.

I'd bet anything that your Model 27 has a serial number higher than the one on your new Highway Patrolman.

The term "transitional" is heavily over-used.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Congrats on all the pickups. Haven't been to a show that good in a long, long time.

No, really not all that rare, it's a common happenstance from that time. The order for model # stamping was on June 12, 1957 and Model 10s were stamped 1st because they moved the fastest, but not until c. Sept. 1957. Slower selling models took much longer before guns in progress w/o the model # stamp were completed and new frames began entering the process were finally stamped with their designated model #s.

So most models weren't stamped for months and up to at least a year for the slower sellers, which represents an awful lot of guns. And you're correct, that your serial # is smack dab in that period.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Well I wear a mask because I want to keep from gettin sick if I can. At 76 I am at top of the list. No to be held back, I have a nice Victory coming in this week from Lander, WY. Cannot print here what we think of that fool in Richmond. Hard for us to fight those from Eastern VA.

Congrats. Pretty much everything in CA is either closed down or so mobbed you can't get in due to the restrictions on bodies in the space.

Couldn't get to sleep yet. Root canals are terrible dream subjects.. Took a few pics of the S&W Highway Patrolman. Not great but I am not a photographer of any note. Even going to post a pic of that Colt. The color case on the hammer and trigger are a bit faded but still there. As can be seen in the one pic with the cyl open there is no model or serial and it is a 4 screw. Gun has been in a holster with very slight edge wear on front of the cylinder and bbl end. Turn line of course. The Colt is almost unmarked...and I looked in the drawer of the desk and found a couple of magazines I bought in January(5 bucks each) that fit the Colt perfectly...but not Colt marked. I took a chance that they fit either a Colt or High Standard... I posted pics without looking at the previous posts. Thanks for all the help. I was pretty certain stuff like this happened. I was really happy to get this one. I had a first year Highway Patrolman that I used to shoot rabbits out of the garden. It was more accurate than me by far but I still kept 'em from eating everything. BTW it is really surprising..this gun came from 75 miles or less from Lander Wy.

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No assembly #s on crane? ?????? normal or odd?

I think there is a number on it..will look after I get home from the dentist in Billings later today

Once you shoot the Colt and experience that delicate trigger pull, you may reconsider the “trading fodder”. Congrats on nice purchases.

I've owned and shot 4 or 5 Colt Woodsman semi auto's. I also shoot S&W 41s. For some odd reason the colt grip angle just does not fit my hand well and I've never been able to shoot them like I do the S&W and High Standards. I need all the help I can get too. I have to do some price checking on that Colt. My last Woodsman MT went for a very high price. I seem to keep finding all kinds of Colt stuff. I must have 15,000 dollars worth of new Colt Parts..I gotta get them sold. If I had frames I could build 5 or 6 Pythons and the same amount of Diamondbacks and much others
So it is going to go. Am going to try to find 2 1/2 inch 19...and I don't know why.

Oh and as someone suggested I check... the no dash 27 has a serial about 9000 higher. It is the 8 3/8 inch gun.

Jack, I have a 5-screw Model of 1955, serial #S130xxx, lettered as shipped March 3, 1959.

Skeet 028, that is a nice Highway Patrolman. The serial number, if factory barrel, should be stamped in the ejector shroud. Your picture shows no serial number in that location. To me, that would indicate that the barrel was replaced at some point, most likely by a private gunsmith, not the factory.

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SWCA 3297 SWHF 583

Interesting. I would assume this is one of those slow moving models that Jim was mentioning in his post above.

My reference was to a Kit Gun. I have a Model of 1953 that shipped in January, 1958, but when Roy gave me the ship date he also told me of a Model of 1953 Kit Gun with a number lower than mine (and no model number) that shipped in June, 1958.

There just is no known uniform pattern to this stuff. Too many people assume that if the gun was made in 1957, it should have a model number on it. That just isn't the case, even with those assembled in the second half of the year.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

The soft fitting ended in 1957 which negated the need for a serial # on the barrel and cyl. That's highly more likely to be the reason for a barrel w/o a serial # in this time period.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I agree, BUT---since soft fitting was halted at the same time as (or very close to it) the order to stamp model numbers, I would assume that non-model marked revolvers would have gone through the soft fitting process. At least that has been my assumption for evaluating originality in the past.

So, if the OP's gun is not model marked, would it have gone through soft fitting? Or is my assumption incorrect? Too many things to know. Too many things to remember....

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SWCA 3297 SWHF 583

I hate to sound like a dummy but could someone translate that into English for me?

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You're shy a few manners.

Most likely small and large pistol primers.

I think so. 5,000 of one and 2,000 of the other.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Yes, and would be 5K and 2K, American. M in Roman numerals.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Your assumption is reasonable. Actually too many transitions going on for reasonable predictability. It was likely chaotic for some months after the change order and during that period guns had to be treated differently depending on which step of production they were in on the order change date. At the time of this gun, there's a 'perfect storm' of two transition periods.

• Soft Fitting Operation eliminated on May 1, 1957 which eventually deleted stamping the serial # on the barrel, cyl & yoke rear surface.

• Model number designation stamping ordered June 12, 1957

So in this case the dropping of the serial # change beat the stamping of the model # change into production. Probably because the Model #s, when finally stamped, were stamped on the frame earlier* in the process than when serial #s were stamped on barrel, cyl, and yoke. Therefore the serial # stamping deletion change would show up sooner on completed guns.

*That's why occasionally we see the wrong Model # stamped for the gun that the frame was finally assembled into. And/or the original # slashed out and re-stamped.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

That's very odd, and the only real anomaly on this gun if it's true. I see a typical inspector's single digit stamp but that's all. I wonder if there's an assembly # on the inside of the side plate.

If they are missing I can only attribute it to the transition of ending the soft fitting process.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Well to be honest I am 99.9% sure it has not been re-bbl'd. Also there is no serial number in the shroud If the bbl had been replaced the gun would have been refinished which is really not the case. This darn gun has hardly been shot. But it has been cocked quite a bit. But it really doesn't matter all that much. It was certainly worth the price I paid. It was just odd enough after I purchased it to realize if had to come from the time when they were making changes in model designation or whatever. I like the large (S)N frame guns. I happen to have a 5 inch (pre)27 back east in the vault...and a 27-2 5 inch I got from a member of this forum. I just like the large frames. I even got my Model 57 that I bought and then sold in the mid to later 60s back about 10 years ago. The fellow I sold it to walked into a gun show I was at...Pure luck. I mostly have and purchase shooters.

When I was in school we were taught the roman numeral system for abbreviations. I was taught later the use of the metric system K meant Kilo as in Kilogram Kilometer...but yep still a 1000. I used the metric system with medications etc when I was a Paramedic

The Latin word mille means 1,000. So, it isn't just Roman Numerals that are in play here. 1M means One Mille or 1,000.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

There were never any "S frames." For several years after the war, N frames had an S prefix in the serial number, denoting the new sliding hammer block safety. But they were still N frames.

The confusion over this was amped up by a sentence in a short article that appeared in the American Rifleman a couple years back. It made reference to "S frames." That was just ignorance speaking and there was some discussion over it by SWCA members who noted the mistake.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I know Skeet 028 isn't referring to "S Frame" but rather the S serial # prefixed N Frames.

Not the confusion of terms from the American Rifleman article.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I cannot agree with you more about the Colt and HS grip angle! It's un-natural, I have to hyper flex my wrist to aim at the target. Now if I wanted to shoot from the hip, the grip angle would be a little more point-able, but not from he shoulder! The Ruger .22 Marks are as bad for me. Their Gov't .22 or whatever they call it is good, but I don't own one.

I only shoot the Model 41, pre war 1911.22 Ace, and 1911 .22 Service Ace in competition or for fun.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Yes picked up 7,000 primers for 110 bucks
I understand the latin these days but the concept was probably going to be lost on a 3rd grade mind at that time in the mid 50s. That is why I have always used the roman numeral M rather than K. Also I know that S&W didn't call the large frames S frames...just as suggested... S as in serial number prefix. I doubt I ever read that AR article...mainly because I don't receive that magazine..I get American Hunter. I really liked the discussion about the changeover period on the S&W nomenclature changes back in the 50s. I am kind of new to the S&W culture even though I have owned them since the 60s.
Only Colt I was ever enamored with and still am is the 1911 and maybe the SAA as it was my first centerfire handgun bought when I was 11. and the 2nd was a 1911 bought at 12 y.o. from Kleins Sporting Goods. The reason I posted about this Highway Patrolman was because I wanted to learn about the differences ''Hondo44s statements about the Colt grip angle is spot on. As well as the older H-S and Ruger grip angles too. I bought a Ruger 22-45 and gave it to my granddaughter as a gift. I did for many years have some H-S Tournament Military handguns and they felt pretty much like my 1911s...but when my wife took her concealed carry classes she used one of my S&W 41's. Even the instructor had to shoot it. As far as assembly numbers on the crane... I think there are some very small numbers right at the hinge point. I will take a look with a magnifier.

Lucky. Hasn’t been a show in NY State since February, and likely wont be any this year

Brother Hondo44,

I think it’s all in what you’re used to. I started out with High Standards (of the “slant grip” persuasion.) When I tried to move over to shooting the 45 my normal grip made me point it too high if I held it comfortably. When I made a foray into shooting 2700 type matches I went so far as to put together a High Standard on one of their “military grip” receivers to try and get comfortable with the more squared off shape. The slant grip still feels more comfortable and points more naturally for me. It may be worth noting that guns built for the old International shooting game (“Free Pistols”) with their specially designed, anatomically fitted grips, have grip angles that tend to be more slanted than military style.

Again, I have to say it’s really about what you are used to... one of my mentors was an old Navy Pistol Team member for whom the 1911 frame was “normal” and who was less comfortable with the slant grips. He would have certainly subscribed to your school of thought!

Best regards,
Your ‘Phibian Phriend

Well we'll see. Not much covid out here This show was in a town of about 900. We only have 1/2 a million people in the state,,,cept in tourista season when it seems we have a 1/2 million just in Cody. I try hard not to go to Cody in tourista season. The limit isn't high 'nuff. I had a friend who did the show and he sells mostly ammo and stuff relating to it. This show had approx 90-100 tables. I talked to him yesterday and he sold over 6000 dollars worth of stuff in 2 days. Good grief. He's usually happy to sell a thousand dollars worth.

Congrats!

I generally avoid the shows. Mostly from being in WA, the laws here have essentially destroyed them. They're just mobile storefronts for gun stores anymore (and the requisite jerky vendors and guy selling self-published macho fiction novels). All of the fun for me, back in the day, was running across other private parties with interesting guns and making deals or horse trades.

The other factor is the money-burning-a-hole-in-my-pocket aspect. If I go with XXX dollars, I'll figure out something to buy whether it's really that great or not. I'd much rather have some $$$ lying around and take advantage of a deal that pops up.

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Psalm 27:2

My thoughts too but I have much more "deals" turn up at shows than going to a LGS. The fellow had the Highway Patrolman on the table for 600 bucks. In a holster rig.. I made an offer on the gun you keep the holster and he agreed. I would have paid the 600 if I had needed to. Some of the shows out here have the bling and junk sellers...but many shows can only find insurance if they call the show Antique Knife and Gun Show. I don't buy dried up meat....but every now and then I buy some pretty piece of Bling or an antique for my wife

Unfortunately the days of the "fella with interesting old guns" table is pretty much history here in WA.

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Psalm 27:2

I think what got me confused was the use of upper case. From science classes, etc., I'm used to lower case m for "milli" as in ms (millisecond), ml (milliliter), and of course mm (millimeter). Personally I like to use "k" for 1,000 in casual writing as in "$5k is cheap for a registered magnum".

I didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion. Usually I am reasonably good at deciphering acronyms, abbreviations, and the like. I need to get down to the reloading bench more often.

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You're shy a few manners.

I have no trouble believing that, Jim.

My concern was that lots of people read these posts on the public side of the website. I wanted to preemptively remove the possibility that someone would be misled by the quoted sentence.

Sometimes we just need to be "mythbusters!"

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Sorry for being slow to come back to this. Doctors and daughters etc. I finally got back to the safe and checked the Highway Patrolman. Inside the crane it does have a number right at the hinge. 86409 the Inspector mark looks like an A with one leg a little longer? On the back of the star extractor there is a number in very small case..looks like the last 4 or 5 of the serial...but hard for me to see without taking it apart. On the back of the cylinder there is a H under the ext star. On the left side of the butt under the grip there is another 86409 in front of the roll pin. No other markings I can see. No end play in the cyl or any side play either. An extremely nice tight gun. Thanks for all the info.. I learned a a lot from y'all. It is a 6 inch gun and not my REAL cuppa joe but think I am going to keep this one as it is so nice. Even better condition than my 27-2 5 inch