I have a S&W Model 11. It is in great shape except for the exterior surface of the barrel is not smooth but not rusty. Grips are checkered and have a silver colored S&W logo at top. How rare is this model?

The .38 S&W version of the Model 10? Sort of unclear what you have. What is the serial number on the butt? Pictures? I'm thinking you may have a British Service Revolver.

When you swing out the cylinder, does it actually say MOD 11 on the frame facing you? If it does, it is indeed a Model 11 and quite uncommon. If not, see DWalt’s comment above.

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I think DWalt is correct in that it may be a 38 S&W gun, not 38 Special. It also sounds like the barrel may have been replaced on that gun with a later Barrel. When the BSRs were initially being produced, they were made with a commercial blue. Later that changed to a black magic finish which was basically parkerizing. If the barrel is rough but it's not rusted it may be phosphate finished. Check the serial number underneath the barrel against the serial number on the cylinder and on the butt of the gun. They should all match. Post pictures when you can.

Guy

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

I once owned to Mod 11 marked guns. One had a bright blue finish, serrated ramp front sight and butt swivel. The other had the regular blue finish, serrated ramp front sight and butt swivel. Both were new in the box.

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38-44heavyduty.com

Welcome! Eight years to your first post!

If the stocks you describe on the gun are small (not covering much above the grip frame itself), they are likely original and indicate it is a late 1930s to early 1940s .38/200 British Service Revolver as noted above.

Because of the .38 S & W chambering and the large numbers of similar surplus guns re-imported after WW II the later model 11 stamped guns were mostly made for export and rare in the USA. As always, photos would help here.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I think Model 11's were ordered by South Africa and by India. India also bought Rugers in that caliber. Neither should be confused with WW II guns.

According to the SCSW, the Model 11 was never cataloged. The SCSW muddles things up by wrapping this model in with the BSR, which is not helpful.

I think as Texas says, they were specifically produced for foreign customers, and as far as I can tell, only in the early to mid-1960s in the mid/upper C-prefix.

The SCSW gives production years from 1947 to 1965, but has anybody encountered a commercial pre-Model 11? I’m happy to learn something new.

The only special case would be the post-Victory BSR’s for the Dutch East Indies from 1947, but those were in standard military WW II configuration.

South Africa purchased Model 11 and 11-4 in the early 1960s for the SA Police. The backstrap was marked S.A.P. I have a few, including one marked S.A.R. (SA Railways) which on close examination is actually S.A.P. with a tail added to the P.

Peter

In "History of Smith & Wesson" it says only that S&W received many contracts for the (Model 11) in the 1950s and early 1960s. I assume these were foreign contracts, most likely nations in, or associated with, the former British Commonwealth.

I believe we have lost the OP.

Thanks to you and all the other responders. I'm having trouble getting my photos attached to a reply; I'll figure it out.

The serial number is 729915 on butt and under the barrel. The number 65007 is on the frame.

Aha. The number on the frame is just an assembly number.

DWalt called it right in post #2. If your gun is chambered in .38 S&W (on the barrel), serial 729915 with no letter prefix would make it a British Service model of the M&P from early 1941.

Yes, your SN suggests it is a BSR which probably shipped around early 1941. The closest example I have listed is SN 736774 which shipped in 2/41. At the time, the BSRs were very much like civilian M&P revolvers made for the U. S. market, except that they are chambered for the .38 S&W cartridge. The finish would have been blued and the grips could well be checkered wood round tops with small silvered medallions. Shortly thereafter, the grips were changed to smooth wood with no medallions. At that time, the British were buying these from S&W, but later in 1941 the Lend-Lease program took effect, and the U. S. supplied them directly to the British Commonwealth.

Hopefully if you can add pictures, we can supply a reasonable estimate of value. They are not particularly common in original unmodified condition (many were rechambered to .38 Special after the war). Are there any proof mark stampings on yours?

Model numbers weren't assigned until 1957.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I had an "un-fired" model 11, can't remember if it was a dash gun or not.

I have mentioned in other threads about having a gun that we were hoping to get $2500 for at auction and two people had probably been tipping a few and got into a bidding war and it ended up selling for just over $5000.

That was a good night for me.

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

I have never seen a true Model 11. I have four of them listed on my SN list, all of which are in the mid-C5xxxxx SN range (1961-62) That indicates they would have been 11-3 and/or 11-4. They are sort of M&P unicorns, like the .32 Long and .22 M&Ps. Not many of those around either.

Thanks again. There is a C with 3 lines starting at the top of the C and fan out to about the width of the C at the bottom of the C. I have a photo but am having trouble loading photos. This insignia is located above the grip on the LH side of the frame.

Sound like Canadian miltary markings.

Do they look like this?

I found a decent British Service Revolver

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

The SCSW says that the 11-1, -2, and -3 were all for foreign contracts. Then there is the sentence that the 11-4 saw “some domestic distribution”. I haven’t seen the evidence for that, except maybe some oddball factory samples.

This is a Sasquatch question. Until someone posts a history letter showing a commercial Model 11-4 shipped to a regular wholesaler/dealer, I won’t really believe they exist.

There are listed by serial 24 NIB Models 11-4 that were sold off from the Butterfields collection. If anybody had or has a NIB specimen, they should check that list. Maybe Rubiranch’s was one of those. They’re all in the C 57x-range.

Probably the Canadian Crown Property stamp - a letter C with a broad arrowhead inside.

Ok, here is the info on the 2 I owned:
C258146, Matte finish, not mod marked, 1952-53, Butt Swivel, 38 S&W CTG, 5 Screw
C570272, Bright Blue, 11-4, 1960-62, Butt Swivel, barrel marked, 38 S&W CTG 173 gr, 4 Screw,
I will look for the letter when I asked Roy why these were shipped so late.
Bill

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38-44heavyduty.com

Interesting trail these older guns follow.

I just checked my records and mine was an 11-4 with a C57xxxx serial number and it was NIB.

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Kenny
Endeavor to persevere.

Yes, the insignia looks like one of the photos. Thanks.

Just to give you a bracket, 760659 shipped on 7 May 1941. Yours would have been maybe a month or two before then. While most S&W models don't ship in serial number order, during war-time production it was close enough to get a good estimate.
Over a half a million of these revolvers were produced for the British Commonwealth countries in WWII. Between June 1940 and December 1941 45,328 were sold to Canada.

I have C569252, marked 11-4 and without SAP on the backstrap, which was sold out of retained stock in December 1970 (source: S&W Historian). I thought I had lettered the gun to get a destination and precise ship date, but I cannot find any such letter in my file. It's my understanding that the 11-4 was manufactured under a South African order, and when order totals were met S&W was left with a few overrun units.

Sidenote: the 11-4s are all four-screw guns, but the 11-3 had only three. I wonder if there are any documents in the surviving corporate files that might shed light on this.

The last 11-4s in S&W's vaults were the ones sold at the Butterfield auction in 1996. Between cessation of production in 1965 and that 1995 clearance, S&W sold and shipped some unknown number (but I suspect very few) in single-gun and perhaps small-batch orders. I dimly remember learning of one that was sold into North or South Dakota before the 1996 vault clearance.

Another sidenote: the SCSW 4 discussion of 11-4s in the Butterfield auction has a handful of errors and oversights. See my post no. 48 in this thread.

SCSW 4 Corrections, comments, suggestions

I believe another forum member has an 11-4 that was shipped singly to Canada and then later returned to the US. That sounds like a private purchase, not official. But I may be misremembering.

EDITED TO ADD: I found the missing letter about my 11-4. It was shipped 7 Dec 1970 to Charles Greenblatt Co. of NYC. In that year Greenblatt bought a few units of two or three different discontinued models for which the factory was receiving no inquiries whatsoever.

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David Wilson

Here are our Model 11 specimens. All are 4" barrel 4 screw with lanyard ring and S.A.P. backstrap marking. This marking was clearly done at the factory; it is too neat and regular to have been done by a police armourer! S/N C556886 has the locally added tail to the P to read S.A.R. (railways police). The barrels are marked S&W CTG 178 GR on the RHS.

Model 11 C543432
Model 11 C544789
Model 11-4 C556886
Model 11-4 C570528

Peter

David:

Thanks for all the detailed information; this is great stuff.

One question on which the SCSW also sounds less than sure: Are there actually any specimen of the Model 11 documrnted, regardless of dash variant, that came from the factory without the swivel? How about the Butterfield guns?

I can dig out the auction catalog and look at the Butterfield guns that happen to be illustrated, but I think an owner of a swivel-free gun, if any exist, would have to address the broad question. The only 11 I've had a chance to hold or even look at from a near distance is the 11-4 in my safe, and while I don't recall noticing the absence of a swivel on any photos I have seen, I'm not sure I would have been smart enough to think that the absence of a swivel might be an interesting characteristic.

As the logic-choppers say, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Even if every Model 11 we can identify and inspect has or had a swivel, that won't mean S&W didn't produce a few units without one. I don't think we have to see an actual gun to settle the question. If a company document providing a positive response to a special order for a Model 11 without a swivel turns up, that would satisfy me.

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David Wilson

Indeed. I also think the existence of either an actual gun without swivel, or paper documentation that such existed, would go a ways toward confirming that civilian specimen were not just overruns, leftovers, or returns from foreign agency contracts, but were actually configured for civilian customers.

Gentlemen:

In my collection I have C570642, a Model 11-4 that came out of the S&W factory collection and was sold in the famous Butterfield & Butterfield Auction. It is NIB, has the lanyard ring, is marked S.A.P. on the back strap, is in a blue Bangor Punta box with all of the usual enclosures, has a blue B&B auction tag and a factory letter indicating shipment on 3/6/96 to B&B. It is listed by serial in the SCoS&W 4th Edition discussion on the Model 11 at page 208.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

I have NIB Model 11-4 Serial # C-581822 From Butterfield Auction and NIB Model 11-4 Serial # C-574756.

With or without swivels ?

The Elroy would suggest the example is parkerized which would be further evidence of a BSR.

Considering the indications of a BSR,this statement would be evidence that replacement grips have been substituted for the originals.

The early BSR's (pre-victory) did have the checkered stocks and silver medallion. I believe the smooth stocks began in late 1941 with some overlap as usual.

These are the stocks we’re talking about, generally called small service stocks with medallion.

These are numbered to a pre-Victory in the 793-range and currently installed on BSR 767114.

The smooth stocks “officially” started on 1/1/42, but as said above, there was overlap. Victor Wesson suggested the smooth style to the British as early as July 1941.

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Thank you for mentioning these. Both are actually from the Butterfield auction, and I am glad you could confirm the serial number of C581822; I had been afraid that the number was an error because it is so far out of range from the other 11-4s in that auction.

I am trying to pull together the serial numbers of known Model 11s and Pre-11s. At this moment I know of 34 -- the 26 Butterfield guns and eight others reported in different threads on these forums. I recall some bits of information that may lead me to half a dozen more. This is not going to be a long list when I run out of leads.

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David Wilson

Guys,
I did find the letter Roy wrote me in 1984 about my Model 11s. I'm attaching it for your info.
I hope it helps,
Bill

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38-44heavyduty.com

Thanks for finding and posting that letter!

I think Roy makes it about as clear as we’ll get it that the Model 11 was not produced INTENDED for the domestic market, but that the specimen that DID indeed make it there and ship to US recipients were ancillary to possible foreign orders that didn’t happen.

How do I get one of those twenty that are still in the vault??

Please Mr. Peabody, take us back to 1984...

Robert

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Robert
SWCA #2906, SWHF #760

Photos attached

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	Revolver serial number 08102020.jpg (46.7 KB, 91 views)
	Revolver mark P 08102020.jpg (58.7 KB, 88 views)
	Revolver number on frame 08102020.jpg (74.8 KB, 92 views)
	Revolver overall view 08102020.jpg (52.3 KB, 108 views)
	Revolver under barrel serial number 08102020.jpg (54.4 KB, 81 views)

Photos attached - 2nd batch

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	Revolver cartridge stamp on barrel 08102020.jpg (40.4 KB, 55 views)
	Revolver insignia 08102020.jpg (45.0 KB, 60 views)

I posted photos a few minutes ago - hope they are not overwhelming.

It's a relatively early production .38/200 (or K-200) British Service Revolver (1940?), due to the 6" barrel, matte blue finish and commercial stocks. Not long after this the barrel length was standardized at 5", the finish changed to dull phosphate similar to Parkerizing, and the stocks were smooth walnut.

I believe the stamping on the left rear frame is a Canadian military mark.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Thanks for the information.

That is a rather nice example of an early 38/200, and yes, it went to Canada.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Thanks - any idea what it is worth?
Mike

Hard to tell about the barrel finish, it may have old pitting and blue loss or flaking of the original bluing.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

They are uncommon in original condition (meaning not bored out to .38 Special) and with the features above. Perhaps $600 to the right buyer?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220