A Little Help on a .455 Triple Lock (Updated)

lamarw · #1 08-16-2020, 12:59 PM

I won this one from a well known auction house a few days ago. I am hoping someone has a data base on these revolvers and the serial number of 4365 might already be recorded

I have auction house pictures as shown below. The auction listing states the gun is chambered in .455 Eley and has been profusely British proofed on frame and cylinder. The stocks seem correct and the listing states are pencil marked with a matching serial number.

I am in hopes it has not been re-chambered but will have to wait until I receive it. I will then post the required cylinder pictures along with pictures of how a .45 ACP and a .45 Colt fit rounds fit the in the cylinder chambers.

Thanks for any help from data bases.

In my research so far, I have found a picture on this forum of a Historical letter for SN: 4323 which is very close to mine.

22/32 JDF · #2 08-16-2020, 01:14 PM

I like it mine is # 5253 Jan 1915. JIM

linde · #3 08-16-2020, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamarw

I won this one from a well known auction house a few days ago. I am hoping someone has a data base on these revolvers and the serial number of 4365 might already be recorded

I have auction house pictures as shown below. The auction listing states the gun is chambered in .455 Eley and has been profusely British proofed on frame and cylinder. The stocks seem correct and the listing states are pencil marked with a matching serial number.

I am in hopes it has not been re-chambered but will have to wait until I receive it. I will then post the required cylinder pictures along with pictures of how a .45 ACP and a .45 Colt fit rounds fit the in the cylinder chambers.

Thanks for any help from data bases.

In my research so far, I have found a picture on this forum of a Historical letter for SN: 4323 which is very close to mine.

I don't see s/n 4365 listed but check out post 233 in this thread by our resident expert Hondo44:
.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

Russ

Absalom · #4 08-16-2020, 01:48 PM

It looks all original, and in fact I do not see any British commercial proofs, at least on the photos you posted. That would be a definite plus.

The markings visible are just the Enfield acceptance stack (upper left frame), crossed-pennant proof (front of left frame), and sold-out-of-stores opposing broad arrows.

mrcvs · #5 08-16-2020, 03:03 PM

This Triple Lock was in the Morphy's auction from the other day. The markings indicate it was imported to Britain (Enfield acceptance marks) and I asked several questions about it and it chambers .455 Webley but not .45 Colt or .45 ACP, so it has not been rechambered.

It also contained a M & P which the auction house claimed was from 1951 but it is incorrect. It dates from May 1946.

Shipping 1914 or 1915 would be about right.

I bid $1600 on the lot but was outbid.

Hondo44 · #6 08-16-2020, 03:28 PM

lamarw,

That's a beauty. It doesn't appear to have been converted to another cartridge based on the tight headspace between rear of cyl and the recoil shield. Certainly not to 45 ACP. Not as conclusive for 45 Colt since the best method of conversion was recessing the chamber mouths which does not enlarge the recoil shield to cyl space. So mrcvs's verification is great information.

THERE ARE FOUR BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. Three of the versions, 1., 2., & 4. include some triple locks, but those in the 4th group are actually the same as 1st versions. “If” roll marked with the cal., all that are roll marked are only marked 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer 455 MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the ‘book’ references to caliber marking of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.

This is not be confused with the British revolver name “MK II” for the “455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model", which the British stamped “II” on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
Note: The WWI British contract Colt revolver is marked ".455 ELEY", different than the S&W 455 marking.

The British markings vary greatly depending on the country of use, military units where they were used, and when/where they were imported, proofed, exported, etc.
There were other ways for these to make their way across the Big Pond to Britain besides thru the usual Remington route; first across the border to Canada, or originally sold here in the states on the retail market and then immigrated somewhere else as evidenced by various and assorted non - USA import, export, approval, or proof stamps. Stamps also vary contingent upon how any particular revolver made the "trip(s)" and how long after WWI because stamping protocol changed over time.

Yours is the 2nd type:

2. “.455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL” in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to ~5800* shipped 1914-15. Thus creating 64 duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version of the “.44 HE 1st Model TL” factory .455 conversion serial number range.

*Previously reported as 0 to 5461. After this shipment there were some of this model sold commercially all in the 5502 - 5857 range, but including a few military issues in that range as well.

Hondo44 · #7 08-16-2020, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 22/32 JDF

I like it mine is # 5253 Jan 1915. JIM

Also a 2nd version.

lamarw · #8 08-16-2020, 05:39 PM

My thanks to all of you fine gentlemen. I have a lot of respect for your expert knowledge on this and many other S&W subjects.

I will post some additional pictures after receipt of the triple lock.

mrcvs · #9 08-16-2020, 09:49 PM

Please don't shoot the messenger...

I thought a long while before posting this, but I will. To prevent others, as well as the OP, from learning a very expensive lesson!

This was Lot 2134 from the Morphy's Auction last week. Since this is public information, this Triple Lock and the M & P sold for $2394. With shipping and possibly sales tax, if any, and FFL fees, if the OP isn't into these for over $2500, it is mighty close. Very little meat on the bone left if any at all. And that's with the .455 Webley still being chambered as such.

Now I know it's truly still chambered in .455 Webley. The OP did not for sure. If rechambered, it's no more than an $850 gun. Which means the OP would have spent, at a minimum, a thousand dollars more than the lot is worth. That's an expensive roll of the dice. Ask questions first, then bid!!!

I have no idea where the pre auction estimate of $800 to $1200 came from as this is extremely low--unless the auction house believed the Triple Lock was rechambered at the time of cataloguing. But now that would be mentioned in the catalogue description, now wouldn't it?

Jack Flash · #10 08-16-2020, 10:47 PM

No one is going to shoot him, but it would be more tactful of the messenger to withhold his dismal speculations at least until the facts are known.

mrcvs · #11 08-16-2020, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Flash

No one is going to shoot him, but it would be more tactful of the messenger to withhold his dismal speculations at least until the facts are known.

I know from doing my research that this Triple Lock remains as chambered in .455 Webley. However, if it had not, the end result would not be so merry.

delcrossv · #12 08-16-2020, 11:13 PM

Nice snag Lamar! FWIW, the Fiocci .455 Mk.II cartridges work, but it's probably better to get .455 Mk I cases from Buffalo Arms and load 'em up.

The Fiocci's aren't the most accurate in my experience.

lamarw · #13 08-16-2020, 11:21 PM

I understand what you are saying mrcvs and where you are coming from. It is good advice. I think of it as considering the total cost of the item. I had it figured out to almost the penny prior to the bidding. The only thing I did not know was the cost of shipping/handling/insurance for the shipment. It turned out reasonable for both revolvers. The total cost was $2465.00. I used my C&R License to preclude any ffl fees.

The evening before there was another Brittish .455 triple lock on the block at Montrose Auction House. It was serial number 444 out of the first 600 going to the British Government. It was far from the condition of the Morphy's triple lock going on the block the next morning. I bid up to $950.00 on the Montrose triple lock. I was out bid by a bid of $1,000.00. I would of had to go up to $1,100.00 and there I decided to stop biding.
I felt my bid amount on the Morphy auction was borderline sanity. The line was drawn right where my wining bid hit. I got lucky so to speak.

Hondo44 · #14 08-17-2020, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamarw

The evening before there was another Brittish .455 triple lock on the block at Montrose Auction House. It was serial number 444 out of the first 600 going to the British Government. It was far from the condition of the Morphy's triple lock going on the block the next morning. I bid up to $950.00 on the Montrose triple lock. I was out bid by a bid of $1,000.00. I would of had to go up to $1,100.00 and there I decided to stop biding.
I felt my bid amount on the Morphy auction was borderline sanity. The line was drawn right where my wining bid hit. I got lucky so to speak.

That one wasn't in the first 600 going to the British because there wasn't a #444 in that first batch of actually 666, the lowest # being 1004.

So it's a 2nd variation (like the one you bought), in the first 600 serial #s. But it could have been the last one shipped of the 5800 TLs, because the shipping dates had no correlation to the serial #s.

deadin · #15 08-17-2020, 12:19 AM

I have #718. It letters as shipped to Remington on 21 Oct 1914.

lamarw · #16 08-19-2020, 07:49 PM

The revolver arrived today which is one week exactly from the auction date. I consider it prompt on the auction house's part.

I am very pleased with the revolver.

Below are some pictures after a quick clean-up. One picture shows a .45 Colt in the chamber, and another is of a .45 ACP round in the chamber. After ensuring neither fit, I ordered a couple of boxes Fiocchi .455 from Midway.

The picture of the interior panel of the right stock is not very clear, but the penciled serial number is very legible upon personal inspection.

linde · #17 08-19-2020, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamarw

The revolver arrived today . . . I am very pleased with the revolver . . . I ordered a couple of boxes Fiocchi .455 from Midway . . .

Very nice original .455 Triplelock . . . congratulations! I predict you will enjoy shooting it with the .455 Mk II Fiocchi you have ordered.

If you enjoy reloading you will find your Triplelock is actually chambered for the longer .455 Mk I Webley cartridge (also identified as .455 Colt). Original boxes of the Dominion .455 Colt cartridges (if you can even find them) are much too valuable to shoot so, if you decide to reload, check back for sources of brass and bullets.

Enjoy,

Russ

mrcvs · #18 08-19-2020, 09:02 PM

I added some information on your revolver to a .455 Webley Triple Lock research thread. You might find it of interest as it is now at or near the top of this section of the forum.

What did you think of the M & P which also was in the same lot?

lamarw · #19 08-19-2020, 09:49 PM

The M&P is about as good as you can get. I also gave it a good cleaning this afternoon. I will not say it was unfired since I got just a smidge of powder residue out of at least one cylinder chamber. The matching serial number was stamped on the interior of the right stock.

Thanks again for providing Jim with the info on the triple lock. I am enjoying and learning from all the input to his thread.

tatume · #20 08-20-2020, 08:08 AM

Starlinebrass.com has 455 Webley MKII cases in stock as of 8/20/20.

lamarw · #21 08-20-2020, 05:59 PM

A Couple of more pictures.