Need help with old Smith and Wesson

gregglassford · #1 09-01-2020, 03:38 PM

My grandfather passed away and I have his gun. It shots great but I contacted Smith and Wesson and they suggested this group as the serial number is too old #115604. Inside the yoke is the number#83424. It's a 22 caliber. The one barrel says Smith and Wesson. The other side says crull & showalter 22 long rifle. The top looks like the Smith and Wesson patented info.

NY-1 · #2 09-01-2020, 04:01 PM

I can't be of much help here, but I'm sure those that can would greatly appreciate some photos of the gun in question.

Wiregrassguy · #3 09-01-2020, 04:31 PM

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Yes, please post some pictures! I've never heard of Crull & Showalter .22 ammo being stamped on a S&W gun. It sounds like it is not S&W manufacture.

jmace57 · #4 09-01-2020, 04:31 PM

^^^^
What he said!

Welcome to the forum. I'm sure we will be able to help if we see some pictures.

murphydog · #5 09-01-2020, 07:16 PM

Got here late and saw the photos.

It is a Military & Police model. The photos show it was originally a centerfire gun, either in .38 Special or the less common .32/20. I cannot see the right barrel but it may be the name of the company that converted it to fire .22 LR. I cannot find the name combination with an internet search.

Photos of the rear cylinder and firing pin would help here.

H Richard · #6 09-01-2020, 07:21 PM

Can you post a more clear and close up of the right side of the barrel with that "name" engraved. The s/n is the one on the bottom of the grip frame, 115604.

murphydog · #7 09-01-2020, 07:22 PM

Also, this gun belongs in the Revolvers 1896-1961 subforum so it will be moved there.

gregglassford · #8 09-01-2020, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphydog

Got here late and saw the photos.

It is a Military & Police model. The photos show it was originally a centerfire gun, either in .38 Special or the less common .32/20. I cannot see the right barrel but it may be the name of the company that converted it to fire .22 LR. I cannot find the name combination with an internet search.

Photos of the rear cylinder and firing pin would help here.

Hi Alan,
Thanks for the info, I have attached the photo's you requested. Thanks,
Greg

gregglassford · #9 09-01-2020, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H Richard

Can you post a more clear and close up of the right side of the barrel with that "name" engraved. The s/n is the one on the bottom of the grip frame, 115604.

Hi Richard,
Thanks for your help. I have attached the photo of the crull & showalter you requested. Thanks, Greg

StrawHat · #10 09-01-2020, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphydog

Got here late and saw the photos.

It is a Military & Police model. The photos show it was originally a centerfire gun, either in .38 Special or the less common .32/20. I cannot see the right barrel but it may be the name of the company that converted it to fire .22 LR. I cannot find the name combination with an internet search.

Photos of the rear cylinder and firing pin would help here.

Not starting a debate but how can you determine it was a CF?

Kevin

murphydog · #11 09-01-2020, 08:21 PM

I don't see the firing pin ("hammer nose" in S & W speak) in photo 5 very well, but a centerfire to rimfire conversion needs to have a higher contact point on the rear of the casing. A factory S & W .22 LR revolver has a frame-mounted firing pin.

The cylinder is probably a factory K frame .22 LR cylinder that has been fitted to the gun, and if you see 115604 on the barrel flat (near the extractor rod) the original barrel had a .22 LR sleeve installed.

murphydog · #12 09-01-2020, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrawHat

Not starting a debate but how can you determine it was a CF?

Kevin

Two telltale signs. S & W rimfire revolvers have a frame-mounted firing pin and there will always be a cross-pin in that area of the frame.

Second, aside from a very few examples made in the 1930s for the Coast Guard, all prewar K rimfire revolvers had adjustable sights.

gregglassford · #13 09-01-2020, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murphydog

I don't see the firing pin ("hammer nose" in S & W speak) in photo 5 very well, but a centerfire to rimfire conversion needs to have a higher contact point on the rear of the casing. A factory S & W .22 LR revolver has a frame-mounted firing pin.

The cylinder is probably a factory K frame .22 LR cylinder that has been fitted to the gun, and if you see 115604 on the barrel flat (near the extractor rod) the original barrel had a .22 LR sleeve installed.

Hi Alan,
There is a SN at the bottom of the barrel. There is an R way to the left then the 115604.The extractor rod blocked it. Thanks again, Greg

JP@AK · #14 09-02-2020, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregglassford

There is an R way to the left then the 115604.

Are you sure it is an R and not a B? B would be normal for a gun that came from the factory with a blue finish.

StrawHat · #15 09-02-2020, 05:34 AM

Alan, thank you for clarifying those points. I come here to learn.

Kevin

gregglassford · #16 09-02-2020, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Are you sure it is an R and not a B? B would be normal for a gun that came from the factory with a blue finish.

Hi Alan,
It could be a B i'm going to have to clean the gun up to read it clearer. It looks like it has the shape of a B. Thanks for all your help. Greg

Wiregrassguy · #17 09-02-2020, 10:31 AM

After several internet searches, I found a gunsmith named Alonzo (Lonny) Crull (or Croll in the Wabash County Historical Museum) who lived in Wabash, IN. He was a converter of S&W and Colt's to .22 LR in the '30s and '40s. He took on an apprentice who left, copied his work and stamped his name on the copies. Could be Showalter. A picture of Lonny's house is below courtesy the Wabash County Historical Museum.

Also, Showalter was a prominent family in Wabash. Homer T. Showalter was mayor in 1935 and several family members have photos in the Museum.

DWalt · #18 09-02-2020, 10:34 AM

After WWII, some of the .38 S&W British Service Revolvers (essentially the S&W M&P) were converted to .22 RF in England. They were fitted with new .22 barrels while the cylinders were sleeved to .22. While yours would not have been one of them, the idea is the same.

gregglassford · #19 09-02-2020, 11:01 AM

Thanks for the great info! Greg

Texas Star · #20 09-02-2020, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWalt

After WWII, some of the .38 S&W British Service Revolvers (essentially the S&W M&P) were converted to .22 RF in England. They were fitted with new .22 barrels while the cylinders were sleeved to .22. While yours would not have been one of them, the idea is the same.

I think Cogswell & Harrison converted some of those.

Years ago, South African Panorama ran an article on an old chap who had a home in the bush and he had one of those conversions.

Don't know what he shot with it. A pen pal said his Ruger MK I lacked power even for dassies (rock rabbits). He did kill a medium sized puff adder with it. Maybe hotter .22LR ammo'd work better?

handejector · #21 09-02-2020, 04:55 PM

Please post some more pics, like-
-The whole gun
-Better pics of the right barrel marking
-pic of cocked hammer and firing pin
-pics of butt number and barrel number
-good pics of cylinder and barrel ends

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

After several internet searches, I found a gunsmith named Alonzo (Lonny) Crull (or Croll in the Wabash County Historical Museum) who lived in Wabash, IN. He was a converter of S&W and Colt's to .22 LR in the '30s and '40s. He took on an apprentice who left, copied his work and stamped his name on the copies. Could be Showalter. A picture of Lonny's house is below courtesy the Wabash County Historical Museum.

Also, Showalter was a prominent family in Wabash. Homer T. Showalter was mayor in 1935 and several family members have photos in the Museum.

His name was Crull.
He did very nice work. Below is a write-up from Great Western Arms Company by Dougan & Hoobler.
They talk about his Lightning and Thunderer conversions, but he also converted Colt Single Actions. I know this because I am in possession of one.

As I said, Crull did excellent work. He could make barrels, but your gun obviously has an S&W barrel, so I assume he lined it. The cylinder may be made by him, or it may be the S&W cylinder with sleeves. Better pics might help us decide.
Crull's guns have a small cult following, and they are fairly valuable. Clean that old gun up!

Need help with old Smith and Wesson-img_0758-jpg

Need help with old Smith and Wesson-img_0758-jpg

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Need help with old Smith and Wesson-img_0757-jpg

gregglassford · #22 09-02-2020, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

Please post some more pics, like-
-The whole gun
-Better pics of the right barrel marking
-pic of cocked hammer and firing pin
-pics of butt number and barrel number
-good pics of cylinder and barrel ends

His name was Crull.
He did very nice work. Below is a write-up from Great Western Arms Company by Dougan & Hoobler.
They talk about his Lightning and Thunderer conversions, but he also converted Colt Single Actions. I know this because I am in possession of one.

As I said, Crull did excellent work. He could make barrels, but your gun obviously has an S&W barrel, so I assume he lined it. The cylinder may be made by him, or it may be the S&W cylinder with sleeves. Better pics might help us decide.
Crull's guns have a small cult following, and they are fairly valuable. Clean that old gun up!

Need help with old Smith and Wesson-img_0758-jpg

Thanks Lee for all the work you put in. I was unable to find out any info for the Krull name. Thanks for all your help! Greg