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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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  #1  
Old 09-09-2020, 08:08 PM
readingbill readingbill is offline
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I bought the gun that I had asked about previously on the forum when the gun dealer mistakenly gave me a K prefix serial number instead of a C prefix. This one is C126XXX, which I'm guessing puts it around 1950. Can anyone pin that down to a more exact year? Also, I was disappointed that the stocks are not original and are ill fitting. There are no numbers on the inside panels.
Does anyone know where I could get period-correct stocks for this, or does anyone have a set they'd be willing to part with? I always like to see M&P snubby photos, so I'm guessing you all do, too. Thanks to all for your help on this one.
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Old 09-09-2020, 08:29 PM
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It looks like someone put grips from an I frame on it. Those grips are probably worth enough to someone to trade you even for a nice, correct set, or you could buy a nice set and sell those to recoup your costs. If you are only looking for functionality, there are some very nice aftermarket stock at reasonable prices.
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Old 09-09-2020, 08:41 PM
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Thanks for your reply.

I'm definitely open to a trade on these for a set of period-correct, k-frame, round-butt stocks.
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Old 09-09-2020, 09:04 PM
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Pm sent on K frame RB stocks.
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Old 09-09-2020, 09:07 PM
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Yes, those do look like an I or J frame set of grips. They do look like they are in good shape and someone will probably want to trade. I do like the revolver, building one like it this winter when I have time.
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Old 09-09-2020, 09:55 PM
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In your earlier thread regarding that revolver you made reference to the asking price. Were you able to negotiate ?
(No requirement to answer if you wish not to , of course...)

Is the finish original?
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Old 09-09-2020, 10:01 PM
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IMHO, with some period correct grips, that will be a dandy revolver and one that I would be proud to own.
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Old 09-09-2020, 10:57 PM
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I have C105xxx which I determined at some point was a 1951 DOM.

The story was it was carried by a detective in Philly. Grandson ended up with it, meant nothing to him, and was consigned to a LGS where I found it.

Typical "carried a lot, shot a little" deal. Shows carry wear but very little turn line. Smooth as butter and tight. Shoots like a dream.
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Old 09-10-2020, 01:10 AM
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This one is C126XXX, which I'm guessing puts it around 1950. Can anyone pin that down to a more exact year?
My list shows three with serial numbers not too far from yours. All of them left the factory in September, 1950.

BUT only a letter from the SWHF can give you any certainty as to when your particular revolver went out the door. They were not shipped in serial order.
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Old 09-10-2020, 06:43 AM
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In your earlier thread regarding that revolver you made reference to the asking price. Were you able to negotiate ?
(No requirement to answer if you wish not to , of course...)

Is the finish original?
They weren’t open to negotiation. But I’ve been looking locally for an M&P pre-model 10 for the last six or seven years- and I’ve hit the area gun shops at least once a month and most of the shows- and this is the first I’ve seen that was fairly local, so I went with it.

The finish is original.
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Old 09-10-2020, 09:30 AM
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So that one was $495? Looks pretty good, even with the mismatched grips.

I gave $400 OTD for this one:

Finish deficient, but excellent lockup and function.
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Old 09-10-2020, 10:19 AM
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So that one was $495? Looks pretty good, even with the mismatched grips.

I gave $400 OTD for this one:

Finish deficient, but excellent lockup and function.
Yours is definitely a cool snubby. Mine also locks up tight - no endshake play at all. I need to get to the range and test it out.
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Old 09-10-2020, 11:25 AM
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Like I said in your other thread-
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Originally Posted by handejector View Post
HOWEVER, the pic is not very large and I can't see a lot of detail, but the grips don't appear to fit real well. They also look a bit strange at the top, making me wonder if they are magna grips that have been altered into service grips.

Can you show us the backs of those grips?
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Old 09-10-2020, 11:35 AM
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Like I said in your other thread-



Can you show us the backs of those grips?
Sure thing. I added them to my first post. I appreciate any insight you can offer.
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Old 09-10-2020, 11:54 AM
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Stocks appear to be from a .38 New Departure
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Old 09-10-2020, 12:41 PM
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Very nice. I have this one that I posted in another thread, but will show it off again.

I too need to find some period correct grips. Based on serial number it's a '49.
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Old 09-10-2020, 01:11 PM
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I was wrong- they are not magnas that have been modified.
Looking at the backs, I think someone sanded the backs. Because the sides of grips are rounded (sloped you might say), they get smaller as the backs are sanded. I have no idea why someone would do that.



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Yes, those do look like an I or J frame set of grips.
I & J frame grips are way too short to fit a K frame.


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Originally Posted by Tired Gunsmith View Post
Stocks appear to be from a .38 New Departure
Again, 38 ND grips are too short for a K frame.
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Old 09-10-2020, 01:51 PM
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OP -

K frame snubs are pretty hot right now , have been for a while. Anytime you can get one in reasonable condition below $500 is a decent deal.
I got mine a year or so back and still feel good about it.

Enjoy.
'Ski
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Old 09-10-2020, 03:11 PM
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Love the snub K frames with the half moon front sight!

I think a set of stags would look great on that gun.

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Old 09-10-2020, 03:50 PM
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Love the snub K frames with the half moon front sight!

I think a set of stags would look great on that gun.

That may be a future option!
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Old 09-10-2020, 07:13 PM
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VERY nice find.

Not exactly like RB Post War Transitionals are to be found in abundance.

Some stag grips would absolutely "pop" on that snubby imo.

Thanks for sharing it.
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Old 09-10-2020, 07:21 PM
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VERY nice find.

Not exactly like RB Post War Transitionals are to be found in abundance.
Well . . .

The OP's revolver has the C prefix and the "high speed" hammer. It dates to about 1950. It is true that the early postwar examples with the 2" barrel and the round butt are quite scarce. That configuration was made in the fewest numbers during the S prefix period. They all had the older long action.

During the 1948-1957 period, the C prefix guns are "pre-Model 10" units. In that period, the 2" round butt is much more common and there isn't anything "transitional" about them at all.

I do agree that it is a good find. But they are not all that rare.
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Old 09-10-2020, 11:14 PM
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I absolutely agree with younggun22, Stags look excellent IMHO on these snubs. My grips were a couple of numbers off and may have left Springfield that way if a mistake was made, or could just be the wrong stocks, the simplest explanation is usually correct.

Either way I love it, one of my favorite Smiths.

This is my birth year M&P, SN C102944, shipped in March 1950.
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Old 09-10-2020, 11:30 PM
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My post war round butt M&P with service grips shipped March 1949
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Old 09-11-2020, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by handejector View Post
I was wrong- they are not magnas that have been modified.
Looking at the backs, I think someone sanded the backs. Because the sides of grips are rounded (sloped you might say), they get smaller as the backs are sanded. I have no idea why someone would do that.
I also think they're sanded, and I think it was to remove chewed up wood from the use of a grip adapter. The left side still has some evidence of the damage that wasn't sanded off completely.
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Old 09-11-2020, 07:33 AM
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So based on the input from those more knowledgeable, I retract my comment about someone accepting them in trade. Too bad, because they look like they are in good shape. Unfortunately, they would appear to have little value in their present state. Sorry if I misled you.
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Old 09-11-2020, 08:23 AM
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So based on the input from those more knowledgeable, I retract my comment about someone accepting them in trade. Too bad, because they look like they are in good shape. Unfortunately, they would appear to have little value in their present state. Sorry if I misled you.
Not a problem. I guess that only an in-hand evaluation would tell for sure. From looking at them, I can see the patina and oxidation on the back look like the age of the grips. The striations look like original saw marks and not from sanding. And if they were the original stocks that were sanded down, wouldn’t they be numbered? If they were sanded down so far to obliterate the number, the fixture fastening the medallion would also be sanded.
Anyway.

But I don’t have any experience other than seeing a couple sets of stocks in hand and looking at others on the forum and on eBay and gunbroker.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best - someone in the past replaced the originals with a set from a smaller-framed gun. A good test would be if someone who had an I frame service stock would photograph it on a K-frame to see if it looks the same as the photos in the original post.

But I, too, will abide by the consensus of the experts!
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Old 09-11-2020, 08:59 AM
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I have a k, j, an i frame in my desk. I tried the j frame grips and they are about 1/8 too short at the bottom of the k frame.

Robert
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Old 09-11-2020, 10:55 AM
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Here is my shiney C prefix pre-10 snub nose. It dates to 1949.
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Old 09-11-2020, 11:15 AM
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Well . . .



I do agree that it is a good find. But they are not all that rare.
Thanks for the info. I debated calling it Transitional and only did so due to the half moon sight a la pre war/transitionals.

Will disagree with you on one aspect however. While RB 2"s from this era may not be "all that rare " per production figures vs post war Transitional guns, or even in the circles of the SWCA, in the world of Gunbroker Armslist, and larger regional gun shows, they're not common either. You'll encounter 8-10 SB in the marketplace vs RB for sale.

I've been searching for one for awhile now.

(going to a show tomorrow, just because I said this I'll probably see one on every other table )
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Old 09-11-2020, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JP@AK View Post
Well . . .

The OP's revolver has the C prefix and the "high speed" hammer. It dates to about 1950. It is true that the early postwar examples with the 2" barrel and the round butt are quite scarce. That configuration was made in the fewest numbers during the S prefix period. They all had the older long action.

During the 1948-1957 period, the C prefix guns are "pre-Model 10" units. In that period, the 2" round butt is much more common and there isn't anything "transitional" about them at all.

I do agree that it is a good find. But they are not all that rare.
Just as a matter of nomenclature: are S prefix and earlier K frames considered as M&P while C and K prefix are considered pre-model 10? Or is M&P used to describe all the k frames until the model numbers start?
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Old 09-11-2020, 01:29 PM
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The "Pre model" terminology is collector shorthand for any Hand Ejector model with all the engineering design upgrades present that were on that model when it was assigned a model # on June 12, 1957.

A Pre Model 10 is a .38 Military & Police model K frame (.38 caliber with fixed sights) and first applied to the 1948 version primarily with the short action or "High Speed Action" (as officially designated by S&W) upgrade along with other more minor design changes.
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Old 09-11-2020, 01:47 PM
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Just as a matter of nomenclature: are S prefix and earlier K frames considered as M&P while C and K prefix are considered pre-model 10? Or is M&P used to describe all the k frames until the model numbers start?
The M&P was introduced in 1899, but so far as I can determine that nomenclature may not have been used right away. So, for convenience, let's say it was adopted sometime right around the turn of the century, 1900 ish.

Around WWI, when the 1902/1905 nomenclature ended, they were M&P from that time forward. Target models were also M&P. Even the Victory was an M&P.

Starting in February, 1946, when civilian distribution started again, the fixed sight guns were called M&P, but the target version got its own name (K-38 Masterpiece). C prefix was for the M&P and the K prefix was for the target guns (Masterpiece series).

The S prefix guns were M&P and that did not change when the C prefix started c. March, 1948. They were M&P then and continue to be up to the present time. When model numbers were added in 1958, it became .38 M&P Model 10. Model numbered guns retained their names; numbers did not replace names.

That comes to the heart of your question. "Pre-model" is a shorthand collector term. It has no official standing, and never has. Personally, I don't even like it. I only used it in this thread to help the OP get my point that his gun has the "high speed" hammer which is one of the factors that distinguishes it from the true "postwar" M&P. Collectors who use the "pre-model" language for the M&P reserve it for those guns that have all the engineering changes that were in place in 1957 when the numbers were assigned. (Which is actually technically incorrect anyway, because in 1956 another engineering change occurred - the dropping of the fifth screw).

The other disputed term (I am one who disputes it) is "transitional" for the S prefix guns. There was a whole series of minor feature changes that took place on the M&P during the postwar years. Such things as the threaded hammer pivot stud, the thumbpiece, the extractor rod, etc., all changed. Not to mention that late in the S prefix range, the hammer was changed from the long action to the High Speed hammer.

So 1946-48 was a "time of transition" for the model. But to apply it the way it is used on the N frames simply doesn't make any sense because there isn't a distinct group of revolvers that clearly have exclusively prewar distinctions like there is on the N frame guns. The gradual disappearance of the hole for the swivel certainly doesn't count.

Anyway, I hope this summary helps you. If you need further clarification, I'd be happy to provide it.
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Old 09-11-2020, 01:48 PM
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I see my good friend Jim snuck in a reply while I was typing my lengthy missive. He is much better at brevity than I am!
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Old 09-11-2020, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by .357magger View Post
Will disagree with you on one aspect however. While RB 2"s from this era may not be "all that rare " per production figures vs post war Transitional guns, or even in the circles of the SWCA, in the world of Gunbroker Armslist, and larger regional gun shows, they're not common either. You'll encounter 8-10 SB in the marketplace vs RB for sale.
I will grant you that. My point was only that the S prefix RB is extremely uncommon. It is a tiny fraction of the approximately 180,000 S prefix M&Ps. It is also a small fraction of the 2" guns, with the vast majority of them having a square butt. The percentage among early C prefix guns is higher. That was the point I was trying to make (they are less uncommon, if you will).
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Old 09-11-2020, 02:29 PM
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I see my good friend Jim snuck in a reply while I was typing my lengthy missive. He is much better at brevity than I am!
that 's ok....sometimes I have to read these things three time to understand it anyway...
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Old 09-11-2020, 02:53 PM
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Thanks for the info. I debated calling it Transitional and only did so due to the half moon sight a la pre war/transitionals.

Will disagree with you on one aspect however. While RB 2"s from this era may not be "all that rare " per production figures vs post war Transitional guns, or even in the circles of the SWCA, in the world of Gunbroker Armslist, and larger regional gun shows, they're not common either. You'll encounter 8-10 SB in the marketplace vs RB for sale.
Personally, I think the term "Transitional" should be abolished. It has no good definition and does nothing but sow confusion. I refuse to use it as a description.
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Old 09-11-2020, 02:56 PM
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So cool. Right out of Dick Tracy.
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Old 09-11-2020, 03:08 PM
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I see my good friend Jim snuck in a reply while I was typing my lengthy missive. He is much better at brevity than I am!
Jim and Jack,
Thank you for both the long and short of it! It’s a fascinating history. I always enjoy learning those kinds of thorough details.

Bill
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Old 09-12-2020, 03:24 AM
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So 1946-48 was a "time of transition" for the model. But to apply it the way it is used on the N frames simply doesn't make any sense because there isn't a distinct group of revolvers that clearly have exclusively prewar distinctions like there is on the N frame guns. The gradual disappearance of the hole for the swivel certainly doesn't count.

Jack, I couldn't agree more! The M&P never ended production thru the war, therefore it continued to evolve like all hand ejectors did before the war and after the war, but also thru the war. There was no re-introduction needed after the war like all the other HEs. Therefore there was no transition from a pre war model to a post war model.

As you indicated there most certainly was for all the other hand ejectors that were dropped from production because of the war. After the war, pre war models were just put back into production but in most cases,* with just a post war safety upgrade.

So were they still pre war guns? No, not exactly, can't call them that.
Were they new post war models? No, can't call them that, those didn't come along until 1948, 1950 or 1953 depending on the model.

So what were those 'in between' guns and what should they be called? A hybrid? Or how about....wait for it....a TRANSITION MODEL!

*Some target models had barrel ribs added as well.
NOTE: The Standard Catalog of S&W 4th ed. has a description of Transitional N frame Models on page 180, most of which applies generically to all Transitional Models.
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Old 09-12-2020, 05:00 AM
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Congratulations on your gun. Two inch barrel, half moon front sight and round butt. It doesn't get any better than that. I had one like that when I was younger but wanted more power so I sold it and got a 2 1/2 in. M19. Now that I'm older and I hope a little wiser I think I should have kept the .38 Spec. Larry
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Old 09-13-2020, 02:49 PM
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if you could find a grip adapter like this one, would that allow the existing grips to work reasonably well? or maybe just make some flat spacers to go under the grips?

https://secureservercdn.net/166.62.1...ime=1583708848
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Old 09-13-2020, 03:20 PM
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That grip adapter option was made for pre war Magna grips, both K and N frame; maybe post war as well. But pretty rare to find.

Spacers would add back the thickness of the grips, but they wouldn't fit or look any better.
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Old 09-14-2020, 10:10 PM
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You and your snub deserve proper grips.
The undersized ones just have to go.
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Old 09-17-2020, 06:44 PM
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First just the side remark! Eliminating "Transition", the concept something of a shock. May I suggest a transition period facilitating adaption, as eliminating the transition concept.

Below my definitely "non era-conflicted" (replacing the term "post transitional) C125xxx K frame .38. As far as these "nickle" style front sight models, over decades I've noted relative few 2" barrel iterations in either round or square butt and particularly so in high condition!

As far as "purchase of uncommon opportunity", (caution: within disposable-income parameters) often 'better to seize the moment' than lament 'what might have been'! Over decades, 'odds' working for me even as admittedly some requiring "maturity" for investment to equal market value!
So! Mine, below.
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:50 PM
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First just the side remark! Eliminating "Transition", the concept something of a shock. May I suggest a transition period facilitating adaption, as eliminating the transition concept.

Below my definitely "non era-conflicted" (replacing the term "post transitional) C125xxx K frame .38. As far as these "nickle" style front sight models, over decades I've noted relative few 2" barrel iterations in either round or square butt and particularly so in high condition!
There's no post transitional term, only "Post War Transitional Model" and it doesn't apply to your gun. You have a .38 M&P model of 1948 or 'Pre Mod 10'. Now don't those have logic attached and a lot more meaning than an un-decipherable "non era-conflicted"?
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:59 PM
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Being unable to find either a nice 2" RB K frame or a 2" model 15, I bought a really nice SB K frame about 6 years ago.
I like the ready availability of a variety of grips for the RB, but I actually like the look and feel of the SB better.
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