I have a S&W 1905-06 .22 all is tight and I beleave to be original.
Was my Dads gun and has a few that I will keep and some I will sell on Gun Broker. My neighbor wants this gun and can’t find a companion on GB. Would be happy to post photos when I know how. Other gun I am not interested in is an engraved S&W , wood box that I will post photos of in the engraved photos categorie.
Ser. 63766X
That is a K-22 Outdoorsman from the early 1930s. Rough specimens can be had for $300-400, and the best condition specimens can go for over a thousand -- way over a thousand if they have the original box. The condition of yours is somewhere in between, and I would guess that a fair price is somewhere around $700-750. But I haven't priced these for a while, and others here may know better what the market currently thinks of them.
The price might be held down by the fact that the stocks are not original. Those are postwar K-frame target stocks from the late '50s to the mid-'60s. The checking fields have also been partially sanded off.
And I should have said this first: Welcome to the forum.
Not sure where your 1905-06 nomenclature comes from. As mentioned above it was made in the early 1930s. There were about 19,000 pre-WWII K-22s so they are uncommon but not rare. Yours looks to be the most common factory configuration of the time, minus the target stocks (grips) which were obviously added later.
For a near-future sale, I would not try and get a set of period correct grips. Not only are they hard to find, these were serial marked so you'll never have the originals. In your ad you'll have to make this very clear (that they are replacements) to avoid accusations of trying to fool the buyer. At best you'll get your money back for all that extra work.
I think $750 is very fair and a GunBroker auction might bring a bit more (but they want their vig of course). You'll need much better pictures to see good value. A DSLR, outdoor shots with wan or indirect lighting (overcast day or just after sunset) works well.
Here's my slightly older one with the correct original grips (and an added grip adapter, NOT period correct!):
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Psalm 27:2
Last edited by hkcavalier; 09-16-2020 at 05:54 PM.
The SN suggests an early Outdoorsman, but it also appears to have a notched hammer like on the K22/40 Masterpiece, which would be considerably more scarce. Are you sure of the SN? I suggest that you confirm the SN from its grip frame area; it's possible that its cylinder has been replaced. Some additional photos of the frame base SN (under the grips), its hammer and rear sight would clarify this. -S2
Welcome to the Forum. Hammer looks OK to me?? The serial number indicates that it is officially called a K22 Hand Ejector, 1st Model. In the days this revolver was manufactured, it was called a K-22 Outsdoors-man's revolver. Year model designations for k frame revolvers ended in the teens, and standard revolvers were simply called Military & Police.
I have a 637506 that shipped in July, 1931 and it is the last of the three images below. Manufacturing started in 1930 for the K22. Period stocks for the decade of the 1930s were silver medallions and a diamond walnut square-butt stocks like the image below on my 1937 K22. They come up for sale at ebay, and check the Accessories For Sale Section often.
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Gary
SWCA 2515
Last edited by glowe; 09-16-2020 at 08:38 PM.
Reason: added photos
So the top one screw by the rear sight, I have only seen the two screws near rear sight. So I guess I am on the wrong list.
Pulling off the grips , photos to follow.
Thanks for the help and the warm welcome.
Looks like there’s a number 8 stamped in and the letter B.
When you swing out the cylinder on the frame there’s a 4 digit number I think it reads 3033
It appears as though the serial number has been removed from the bottom of the grip frame.
If it has been removed then owning that gun may be problematic, or not.
The stampings on the right side of the frame are fitter's marks.
The four digit number is an assembly number.
Can you show a more clear picture of the bottom of the grip frame?
The actual serial number should be stamped on the barrel flat underneath the barrel.
Most probably the letter 'B' for blue should be stamped there also.
Uh...yeah. The removed number on the butt is the legal serial number. Why someone would remove it from an otherwise fine specimen is beyond me. I am pretty sure it hasn't been refinished.
You can't sell it as-is, period. Getting the S/N restamped requires a lot of hoops with the BATFE I believe. You can't just take the number off the back of the cylinder or under the barrel, even if they match, and hammer it into the butt.
Not sure what the Model 10 Facebook image is meant to show, but Facebook is probably the last place I would look for any reliable information. Besides, all K frames made before 1957-1958 were NOT Model 10s, so another reason not to use the information from Facebook.
The hammer still looks just like mine and I cannot find the notch. Could someone please post comparison images? I am posting three images: #1 is OP's gun, and the next two are my 1931 and 1937 K22s. What is the difference??
As for the single screw rear target sight, my notes state that the second check screw was added in 1931. November 10, 1931 order to make all model rear target sights with elevating check screws per H Wesson.
Lastly, a quick note that the BATFE considers a S&W without a butt-frame serial number being illegal to own or sell. There may be a few ways to take care of the issue, if for instance you can find a gunsmith to replace the numbers?? Not legal in the eyes of the BATFE, but the alternative is being caught with the gun or going through the tedious BATFE process to "legalize" the gun.
The hammer still looks just like mine and I cannot find the notch. Could someone please post comparison images? I am posting three images: #1 is OP's gun, and the next two are my 1931 and 1937 K22s. What is the difference??
First and 2nd pictures are of my K22/40 Masterpiece.
Third picture is OP's hammer. Not typical on the K22 Outdoorsman.
Now I get it. I thought the notch was the area under the rear of the hammer spur.
Interesting that the notched and not notched hammers carry the patent stamping.
Speaking of the pre-WWII K22, one just sold in a RIA Auction for $2000. I actually think that was a good price for that gun. Partial description and images (notch & all):
Pre-World War II Smith & Wesson K-22 Masterpiece Double Action Revolver with Factory Letter. The included factory letter confirms the serial number, model, caliber, barrel length, finish, grips, and May 17, 1940 date of shipment as one of five units shipped to E.K. Tryon Co. of Philadelphia. The letter further states all five units were in the same configuration. This is one of only 1,067 pre-war K-22 Masterpieces manufactured.
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Gary
SWCA 2515
Last edited by glowe; 09-17-2020 at 02:42 PM.
Reason: added content
But, to be clear, the OP's gun is an Outdoorsman. It's too early to be a Masterpiece. It just has a prewar Masterpiece hammer swapped out at a later time (for some unknown reason).
I want to thank you for all the input on value for my fine neighbor. I do have a concern on the lack of numbers on the butt of the handle.
I have a pretty gun I’ll post photos of and don’t know really what it is but I like it and won’t sell. Plus one 1899 .38 Army I will keep and the little terrier I’ll keep as well.
So is there a chance that some of these guns were not stamped in that location? And why remove the Stamping? What would that accomplish?
One more time on value on this gun after all it has went through and what we know about it please. New guns and photos coming soon.
There's 0% chance that K-22 wasn't stamped with a S/N.
The only legal reason I've ever seen is a heavy-handed refinish prior to 1968 when it was legal (but still a bad idea). Often it's to fill in a lanyard loop or fix rust, but the first doesn't apply and the second is doubtful considering the condition of the gun.
A really stupid criminal might do it, but then there's the S/N stamped in two other places. It's a headscratcher.
[QUOTE=hkcavalier;140904439
The only legal reason I've ever seen is a heavy-handed refinish prior to 1968 when it was legal (but still a bad idea). [/QUOTE]
A common misunderstanding. It was NEVER legal to remove a serial number. Prior to 1968, serial numbers were not required to be placed on shotguns and rimfire rifles. Even on those, if they were factory numbered, removal of that number is/was a federal offense. BATF does seem to be more lenient in cases where the number was removed in refinishing, however, than obviously obliterated.
I'm sorry if my many posts on this issue come across as an obsession, but my job for 35 years involved restoring serial numbers and testifying regarding their legality.
It was not uncommon for a criminal to remove the serial number from guns stolen, thinking that law enforcement would not be able to trace the gun. Of course, there are many locations for a serial number to ID a S&W. I have seen one gun years ago that had almost all the serial numbers removed, almost certainly a stolen gun. If your neighbor bought this gun recently, a return should be considered.
Value?? It is illegal to sell the gun as it is today, so value is not something that can be estimated. Another original K22 with a later hammer replacement and non-original stocks, maybe $600?? Original stocks will cost $200 and if one could find an original hammer, maybe another $100, bringing the value up around $900. There were almost 20,000 made.
One more time on value on this gun after all it has went through and what we know about it please.
I'll put it this way-
If you offered to give me the gun, I would decline.
If you offered to pay me $500 to take the gun as a gift, I would refuse.
It is simply NOT worth the trouble to own a gun that is legally contraband.
A common misunderstanding. It was NEVER legal to remove a serial number. Prior to 1968, serial numbers were not required to be placed on shotguns and rimfire rifles. Even on those, if they were factory numbered, removal of that number is/was a federal offense. BATF does seem to be more lenient in cases where the number was removed in refinishing, however, than obviously obliterated.
I'm sorry if my many posts on this issue come across as an obsession, but my job for 35 years involved restoring serial numbers and testifying regarding their legality.
Bob
I could have been more clear as well, thanks for the additional input. I'm not a pre-GCA expert, but have seen more than a few guns like this with either the S/N scratched onto the grip frame or the refinisher clearly shrugged and said, "Well it's still on the cylinder and barrel" and called it good. And a couple where the seller/gun shop just used the assembly number as the butt stampings were long gone.
Thanks for info on the serial number. This gun is registered, so maybe over looked. All the guns are registered.
Attached are some photos of the S&Ws for you own edification.
Want to sell the engraved one and liking the .38 Army. The .38 that’s a little to pretty for me an might sell. Have two boxes of ammunition for the Terrier and will keep.
More photos coming.
The 1899 Army is refinished, and it lacks the original grips. The grips are unique to that batch of 1000 guns, so finding a pair will probably be impossible. In light of these two facts, I do not know what it is worth.
Give more data on the engraved gun, like caliber and serial number range.
That first one, the 14-3 or 14-4 from 1977...is it just me or is something weird going on with the ejector knob? Was it painted white for some reason? Otherwise, with those nice presentation grips and what looks to be high-end condition, you might see $800 or more at an auction.
The last one, the nickel 15, something is not quite right with those grips. I would hope you could score $700 for that one.
Serial number on the engraved coming Monday. The cal. is .357 on the engraved one.
That rod end that’s nerald looks like it has over spray, strange I know. I’ll send a close up photo on that soon. I agree the Army is reblued.
There's 0% chance that K-22 wasn't stamped with a S/N.
The only legal reason I've ever seen is a heavy-handed refinish prior to 1968 when it was legal (but still a bad idea). Often it's to fill in a lanyard loop or fix rust, but the first doesn't apply and the second is doubtful considering the condition of the gun.
A really stupid criminal might do it, but then there's the S/N stamped in two other places. It's a headscratcher.
It has never been legal to remove a serial. They weren't required before GCA 68 but if a gun had one it was illegal to remove it.
I assume the gun is stolen. No other reason to remove a serial. Probably stolen 60 years ago and the OP's dad bought it not knowing. My advice always the same in these cases (and it happens a lot around here) where legal owner can't be found at this point. The serial is under the barrel and the cylinder. Go to Harbor Freight and buy a set of stamps. Then stamp the serial back on the butt or on the side of the grip frame. Voila, the frame has the correct serial and that's what the law demands.
Then stamp the serial back on the butt or on the side of the grip frame. Voila, the frame has the correct serial and that's what the law demands.
I hate to beat a dead horse, but that's not what the law demands. It may pass inspection by someone not familiar with S&W stamping or BATF requirements, but it does not meet legal requirements. Only the factory applied on the butt or BATF authorized number prevents this gun from being classified as contraband.
To me it looks like Dad swapped out the grips on this engraved gun, but I know nothing. I think I remember him saying it was factory engraved. Don’t these engravers put a mark or sign there work?
I got a idea on the .38 terrier on GB and I think it’s about $488.00 to $515.00 with the two boxes of ammo that goes with it.
That knurled knob is brass I think. I’ll try a magnet on it later.
When looking for that gun I found another one the is too new for my taste. Looks like it just come out of the box.
Photos coming up now...
New S&W .22 , as always with the wrong grips, I think...
S&W .22 with serial number and model number. To new looking for me. Don’t have an interest in this one. And would like a value on it please.
I have a Dan Wesson .22 in excellent condition given to me I think 40 years ago, is that a different site/ forum?
Modified K frame target grips. A collector will not like but a "regular" buyer might. Target hammer and trigger which are plusses. I can see a $800-$850 street price. Unlike some of the other guns you've listed, getting original grips is pretty easy and these weren't serial matched. You can't honestly say they are "the" original grips but they're indistinguishable original replacements. You could also find some smooth presentation grips which are also period correct.
I think the ejector rod knob has brass in it. Like someone clamped it in some brass to remove it and some brass smeared into it when it turned a bit.
On the outdoors man with no legal serial number. Just where and how was it registered. The feds have no gun registry, some states do. If a number got written down it was either the assembly number (had a FFL guy try that) or off the barrel or the cylinder neither of which would satisfy the BATF. The percentage of gun owners who don't understand that the only serial number that counts on most S&W revolvers is the one on the butt. A small number were made at one time with the number on a different location on the grip frame. I think only some early small framed 22s hand ejectors. Not K frames ever. A law enforcement person may well have looked at it and not known. They don't get classes on that.
You might be able to have someone contact the BATF and get permission to re stamp the number. Maybe, maybe not. I have heard of it happening. But, I think it maybe a **** shoot and depend on who you end up talking to and what they had for lunch. Even then the value would be low. At best if re stamped it is a $500 shooter 22 at this point. With no stamp it is a liability not an asset.
I think the serial number on the 19-4 starts 61K, but wouldn't swear to it based on that photo. If so, it's likely to be a 1979 product.
On engravers, permit me to make up a rule: Engravers don't usually sign or initial their work because in their world their style IS their signature. I can't propose a value because engraved guns don't interest me, though I am happy to acknowledge the skill and vision that went into making a thing that I don't want. That style looks familiar to me, meaning I have seen it on other revolvers, so it's probably somebody known. An engraved-gun aficionado should be able to tell you who it is.
I am reading 9484 & 80837.
The 80837 is on the part that swings out that holds the ejection rod an cylinder.
9484 is in the pocket where the rod fits into when closed.
Yes, I see the two areas your talking about. Wonder why that is? A Bubba thing I guess. Gun would be fine with out that coloring. Or what ever it is.
Thanks, good eye. Didn’t notice the two together.
1905-6 .22 ser.63766X
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