Saw one near me. Decent shape. No rust or much blue loss. Grips don’t match the gun and there’s a number engraved on the back strap. Probably a cop gun. I have other Model 10’s but no pre Model 10.

In today’s market.Yes. Don’t turn your back. It won’t be there when you turn around.

I believe that is a good price if there are no mechanical problems with it.

Buy it if its as you describe it. Mdl 10 is a work horse.

$350 out the door for the most common 4" barrel length was a good price a few years ago. In the current buying panic it might be a steal?

Some of the members here prefer "pre-Model 10" be defined as a short action revolver that only differs from a Model 10 by lacking the Model 10 stamp. What does it mean in this case? In equal condition the older it is the more it is worth. IMO early post war or long action M&Ps, which some members call transitional M&Ps, are worth significantly more than short action versions. Also 2" snub noses are worth more than longer barrel versions. Generally, the further back you go in time the smaller proportion of M&P/Model 10 production were snub noses.

Most collectors reserve the "pre-Model 10" terminology for those made between 1948 and 1958 having short actions, or, those having a C-prefix SN up to around C 430xxx. But a few in the very high S-series also qualify. $350 is OK for an M&P of any age in fairly good condition. Regarding the term "Transitional", I do not use it. Far too vague, as it means different things to different people. Regarding those made in the early post-WWII period (1946-48) having long actions, I believe it is better to just call them "Post-WWII" M&Ps. Some might even call them "pre-pre-Model 10s."

I bought it. Serial number S 846515. Cylinder has the matching serial number, too. Never saw that before. There’s a number on the backstrap, 13855. Probably cop badge number.

Open the cylinder and look under the barrel. I think you should see that number again.

I'm soaking it in automatic transmission fluid now. Didn't take the whole gun down. Just removed the sideplate and cylinder. Looks pretty clean in there. I just prefer to look under the hood of a used gun. You're right, the serial number is under the barrel. Looks like 1945 manufacture?

If it‘s in decent shape, that‘s a very good deal for a post-war S-series M&P from 1946.

If it is indeed a 4“ barrel, the number on the backstrap is very likely a shield number from NYPD. The location and number of digits fits, and NYPD bought large batches in 1946 when S&W resumed shipping the commercial version. Jack may have a more precise idea.

That would be great! I'm retired NYPD and I'd love to own one from way back in the day.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but joining the SWCA would allow me to request that info, but if I wanted the actual letter, I would have to order one?

Gun was $376 out the door, by the way.

As a SWCA member, Roy would get you the ship month and year, and maybe drop a hint whether it‘s worth lettering, but for the actual destination you‘d need to pay the (reduced member) cost for the letter.

PS: Your photos just popped up. I‘m going to walk back a bit on the NYPD number. They stamped theirs with individual number dies; yours look maybe electro-penciled?

Thanks. Might be time to order one. How do I order a letter without joining the SWCA?

Here is the best example I could find; this NYPD shield number is confirmed on a 1952 lettered Colt OP.





Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Home Page - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come

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Your number certainly looks neater than mine.

S846515 would date its shipment at around October 1946. NYPD got quite a few in the S842xxx to S848xxx SN range shipped to them at that time, 10/11/46. The main thing a letter would do is verify if it was a NYPD gun or not - if that information is worth $100 to you to find out. Given that it is in the correct SN range and has what may well be a badge number applied, it probably is a NYPD gun. The probability is boosted by the heavy wear on the grip panels typical of being carried a great deal. It would not be too difficult to find a better pair of period-correct Magna grips if you keep looking on eBay. That "sharp shoulder" style was used into the early 1950s. For a letter, see:
Smith & Wesson Collectors Association

Quit worrying what collectors call it and buy it as a sound used .38 before some member of the public does.

You can decide if it's pre, post or intermediate something later.

But that number may denote an evidence gun, not a badge number. Looks pretty crude.

Very likely shipped in October, 1946. See my comments below.

That was SOP until the mid-1950s. The serial number also will be in three more locations, besides the two you mentioned.

Also, the serial number, minus the S, will be on the inside of the right stock panel, if the stocks are original.

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss this as an NYPD badge number. Granted, it doesn't match the style I've seen on most NYPD revolvers, including one in my collection and the one illustrated by Absalom.

However, S846572, which is a confirmed NYPD revolver, has badge number 13819 on the back strap. That gun shipped from Springfield on October 11, 1946. It's even money yours was in the same shipment. S846463 was also in that shipment.

Those two bracket your serial number nicely, and the badge number being so close is, to my mind, pretty strong evidence this gun was used in NY.

All in all, this is a heckova buy for a mere $350.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

This may just be the lighting, but the more I look at the photo of the backstrap on your gun, the more it looks to me like the surface texture indicates some heavy buffing. Since these revolvers were sold to new officers, not issued as department property, it is not unheard of for guns to be passed on upon quitting or retiring, to save some money. Maybe someone buffed out an old shield number and home-inscribed a new one.

Maybe, but why would the shield number be so close to the others mentioned. I don’t know how it used to work, but shield numbers used to be pretty random when I came on. I had a 4 digit, my partner had a 5 digit, and one guy I worked with had a 2 digit! We all went through the academy together. He used to be the one to catch a complaint from a member of the public. 2 digit number easiest to remember!

I believe our colleague was suggesting the original number was re-inscribed.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

So is my impression correct and the backstrap does have a lot of post-factory vertical striations indication polishing?

Of course this is nothing but random speculation. But if it is a shield number, there‘s got to be an explanation. Maybe someone who‘d bought the gun in the academy discovered it wasn‘t for him and quit a month into the job . That‘d be the most likely person try to recoup his money for the gun. And it would be relatively close in time. The Equipment Bureau probably didn‘t take guns back once a shield number had been stamped.

But if the gun shipped with the others with so close a shield number, and the shield number indicates when it was issued, I guess the original officer would have had to quit and the gun be issued very soon. As he said, NYPD cops buy their own guns, so even it a cop quit, the gun went with him. I guess he could have sold it to another recruit.

Then again, knowing what I know about how that department was run, particularly the equipment section that used to purchase the guns and then sell them to the officer, it could have been somebody misplaced the punch used to mark the weapons and then just made do.

Never got a letter before but I think this may be my first. I’m curious now. It doesn’t HAVE to be an NYPD cop gun, but it would be cool if it found its way to Pennsylvania 74 years later and ended up in another NY cop’s hands.

Just checked the grips. They do number to the gun. Not in a way I’ve ever seen them stamped. Rather than 846515 all in a row, it’s stamped 846 over the 515.

That‘s normal. Here‘s another NYPD gun, a C-prefix from 1959.

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I'm not sure when they went to the two line serials on the stocks. I have several of them from 1946-48, nothing fixed sights from 1949. but at least two targets from that year. In '46 they were definitely on one line.

Also I have two from 1952, and one from 1951. I'd have to pull some from the safe to see if I can figure out the break point. When I get time, I'll do that. But I cannot help you from memory. Sorry.

__________________
Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I stumbled onto this older thread and figured I’d update it. I had the gun lettered and it did ship to the NYPD on 10/11/46. RM Vivas was kind enough to research the gun and the shield number on the back was correct. Don’t know why the style is different but the Equipment Section records show the gun was sold to the officer with that shield number.

Vivas included newspaper articles written about the officer who had that gun. He used this gun in a shootout with 4 gunmen in 1950 and was awarded the Medal for Valor. He was even assigned to my old precinct. This $350 old .38 has become my most valuable firearm. Very glad I snapped it up. I couldn’t find any more info on the officer, other than he died in 1991 in Florida. The latest he could have stayed on the job was 1982, and it is a rare bird who stays until they force him out, I wonder how this gun found its way to a gun shop in NE PA? I doubt he took the gun with him to Florida and it found it’s way back to the NE. I guess he could have given it to a child who stayed here and eventually sold it, but the obituary doesn’t mention a wife or children.

sometimes I'm amazed at how things work out...glad it went to someone who loves it....not many have a story like that

I enjoy the current stewardship of a few pieces with provenance.
Congratulations, the fun of research and discovery is as much or more than having the gun itself.

Thank you for this update about your very interesting revolver. Indeed, this forum is a treasure trove of knowledge and collegiality.