Just before getting out of the Marine Corps in 1969, I was gifted this S&W 38. I have had it stored away for the last 51 years. Finally decided to see what condition it was in. Apparently its in fairly good shape as reported from several gunsmiths in the area.


I know it was a pilots sidearm since I was in a F4 squadron at the time. Probably flew in Vietnam.



I'm thinking about getting it Parked back to its original state. What does the "S" mean stamped on the cylinder?

What does the "X" mean on the yoke?



Also, what is the best round to fire in this thing?

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Welcome to the forum.

The serial # indicates an early WWII production likely from 1942.

Although showing normal wear, that's a nice original example, and I suggest resisting the temptation to refinish it. That would just be a cost you to all but destroy its collectibility and collector value. It was not parkerized originally, it most likely had the sandblast brush carbonia blue finish. Later, most had the sandblast "Black Magic" finish, but it looks like brush blue to me.

The X in the yoke cutout on the frame is simply an inspector's identity code.

As I recall, the S on the cylinder indicates it has the post war superior "slide action hammer block" safety still used to this day. You'll know for sure if the hammer is notched on the front face just below the hammer nose (firing pin).

Is it stamped U.S. Property on the topstrap? This was fairly common in your serial # range. And it should have the G.H.D. inspector stamp next to it.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

V 221585 would date its likely shipment to early 1943, probably January. Regarding refinishing, one word - don't. While it could be one of those retrofitted with the improved hammer drop safety, I sort of doubt it, as it would probably be marked as such other places. The appearance of the hammer notch would be a giveaway, as well as removing the sideplate and taking a look at the lockwork to see if the hammer block was there. This is a website with considerable basic information about the Victory revolvers including the various markings: http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/v...and_wesson.htm

It did have the Property of the US on the topstrap. It was removed before it was given to me. I wish they hadn't done that. It is what it is.
The finish is a soft black coating. I thought most of the M&Ps were Parkerized.

Regarding ammunition, any .38 Special ammo you can find. If you can find any today. The original WWII military load used a 158 grain FMJ bullet, and for aviation use, tracer bullets were often supplied in order to make the revolver into sort of a flare gun for use by downed pilots. The missing property stamp is a downer. It is fairly easily buffed off as it was not struck very deeply.

It was not originally parkerized. The finish was what they called "Military Midnight Black" essentially the same hot bath oxide bluing used on guns today by many manufacturers. But the finish is dull because the metal was not given a high polish prior to bluing.

Regarding whether it was retrofitted with the improved drop safety, cock the hammer and make a picture showing the cocked hammer profile and post it. That will positively tell the tale.

NOOOOO ...... sorry

You seem to have a pretty well-preserved original Victory finish on a gun with a bit of a story. Too bad about the topstrap, but that’s no excuse to ruin the entire gun.

The S on the cylinder is just a service dept. mark indicating this part was worked on after not passing final inspection, before the gun shipped. For the new safety, the S would have to be on the butt and on the sideplate above the grip panel.

PS: For comparison, below a photo of a minty, likely unissued Victory of about the same vintage as yours.

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OP, I also posted on your .32 Mauser thread. Boy, you have some nice handguns! You mentioned ammo: I would use standard pressure ammo: 158gr LRN or 130gr FMJ ammo. Target wadcutters would also be fine. Why not take it to a gunsmith to verify that it is safe to shoot? Thanks again!

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Most parkerized gun are from when refurbished at the armory and it would have stampings to indicate the refinish. The gun looks blue (see photo showing the frame yoke cutout) and would look bluer next to the actual black/grayish finish.

Look under "FINISH" here:
http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/v...and_wesson.htm

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Thank you for the correction regarding the S on the cyl. Just because I recall things, these days, it's no indication of accuracy.....

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Not to get too nitpicky, but this sentence on the coolgunsite is incorrect:

"Early sandblast blue, sandblast mid-night black (appears grayish black). And finally a parkerized finish."

According to the documentation we have, the parkerized finish was not "finally", but "temporarily", only on the 2187 DSC guns that shipped in May/June 1942. The Sandblast Black Magic, usually just called sand-blast in contemporary documents, was used before and after.

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Excellent info.

Thank you,

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Can we get a look at that top strap?

Yes! Not all were stamped.

And it takes more than buffing to remove it! Which usually leaves evidence of being removed, especially when the gun has not been re-finished.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Absolom, do you know if my non-military Victory was one of those 2187? I have the letter somewhere around here, and I seem to recall it was issued around that time period. The finish looks parkerized to me, and I always assumed all Victorys were finished that way. (Please accept my apology for hijacking the thread.)

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Like others on here, I would strongly suggest you keep your Victory in original condition. Thanks for sharing the photos with us, and thanks for your service to our country. (What did you do in the Marines?)

It’s hard to tell, since the appearance of the finished product has to do as much with the surface prep as with the exact type of chemical process applied.

The history letters also are no help, because record-keeping seems to have been imprecise and the terms Black Magic, Midnight Black, and occasionally parkerizing were apparently used at random throughout the period for whatever utility finish it actually may have been, which is reflected in the letters based on those records.

There also is no list of the serials of those 2187 actually parkerized guns that I’m aware of. Back in 2010 Ed (opoefc) posted excerpts from the Carl Hellstrom notes which represent the grand total of our knowledge:

“5/22/42 to 8/17/42 Some guns were parkerized instead of Black Magic blue. These were all sandblasted. 2187 shipped between these dates to DSC orders. Navy did not get any Parkerized guns. Ser#s around 980,000”

You can find Ed’s entire post here:

Victory Model wartime changes

To everyone who replied/read to this thread, thank you.

I have learned more in the last couple of days than searching the internet. I have posted more pictures and the modifications have not been made, no notch on the hammer and no "S" on the butt plate. There is an "S" on the inside of the butt but I think its the same guy who worked on the pistol before since I have seen the "S" in another place.

The government markings have been removed from the topstrap. I know because of the time and person I got the revolver from. It came out of the armory from the squadron I was in.

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Thanks...that's very helpful. I know my 5-digit Victory was made in the summer of '42, and it went to a distributor in Georgia. I had always thought it was parkerized, but it doesn't look like it's been sandblasted, so I don't know.

I bought it from a Forum member many years ago. Because of its condition -- apparently unfired -- I happily paid $600 for it, which was about the twice the going rate at the time. I wouldn't sell it for five times that amount now...

Oh my! You can clearly see where somebody took a grinding wheel to the topstrap and removed the markings...that's a shame. On the other hand, it adds to the history of your Victory.

Welcome to this group, by the way. As you've seen, the members here are some of the most knowledgeable firearms enthusiasts on the planet; I learn something new every time I log onto this page.

In addition, this is -- thanks to The Rules -- one of the most civilized places on the Internet. I hope you love it here as much as the rest of us do...

I enlisted in 1965 after a year in college. Just turned 18. I was a "Firecontrol Technician". A fancy name for a "tweeker" or electronics technician. I worked on F4-B Phantom radar, ECM equiment and missile systems. Spent most of my time in school or at Chu Lai South Vietnam. Was a shortimer when I got back and was in training squadron in Beaufort, SC.

The USAF issued MANY Victory models during the 1960's. I often wore one, due to a shortage of newer Combat Masterpieces.

There's a photo of an Air Rescueman by a helo, holding an AR-15 and wearing a Victory .38. This man received a posthumous Medal of Honor after remaining on the ground and fighting alongside infantrymen when his helo was full of wounded soldiers. He showed extreme gallantry in battle and in recovering wounded under the most hazardous circumstances. I think there's a bldg. named for him at Lackland AFB.

Do any of you recall his name or that photo?

Picture shows that someone took a file or a grinder to the topstrap property stamp. The hammer picture confirms that it is not consistent with a conversion to the 1945 improved hammer drop safety. With one possible exception, all Military Victories will have a property stamping on the topstrap. Pre-Victories (prior to late 1941) will not. Nor will non-military Victories.

I think it's William Pitsenbarger, and the building (Pitsenbarger Hall) is at Randolph AFB. It is a large administrative office building. I have been in it many, many times. I can't say there is or isn't another building named for him at Lackland, but I don't know of one there.

I have a pre-Victory 4" .38spl example in the early 985xxx serial number range. It does not have a marking on the topstrap but did later get a "PROPERTY OF U.S. NAVY" pantograph marking on the left side of the frame.

I dug up a factory letter from another example very close in s/n to mine and it clearly states that they went to the U.S. NAVY (possibly one of 3 different Navy locations) and that the finish was listed as parkerized.

So even though the factory letter for these in the 985xxx serial number range states the finish was listed as parkerized are you saying it was stated incorrectly if the U.S. Navy supposedly didn't get any parkerized revolvers?

Here are pics of my example and a pic of a factory letter close in s/n to my example.

Also, a huge Semper Fi to F4phantom. When I was stationed at Cherry Point (early to mid 1990's) we still had some cocooned F4 recon variants stored outside. They were completely wrapped/preserved and supposedly very little would have been required to get them up and flying again. I was an I-level avionics tech for Harriers during my time in the "Cream Corn".

Dale

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F4,

Here are some pics of the closest s/n Victory I have in relation to your example.

It is marked "U.S. NAVY" on the topstrap and is about 2,000 revolvers older than yours, serial number wise, bein in the V219xxx range.

It was the first "U.S. NAVY" marked example in my collection and was a rather inexpensive local find in a small town near where I live. Someone rather crudely carved "HDL" into the right side stock, which is non-matching serial number wise but relatively close in the 226xxx range. This is the only example in my Victory collection having a mismatched serial number stock. I have often wondered just who "HDL" is/was.

I see your example also has a non-matching stock. I feel it was a common occurrence for them to have been swapped during routine maintenance/cleaning during their time in service.

Dale

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Yep, it appears somebody stated something that doesn’t match. We just can’t be sure who did. We know that the Hellstrom notes were based verbatim on the notes of plant superintendent A.R. Williams, who said the same thing about the Navy not getting any.

But either they could be wrong, or the shipping records Roy used for the letter could be inaccurate, or the letter could be inaccurately worded.

Or it could be a revolver originally meant for a DSC contract that was diverted into a Navy shipment. Pate does mention the Navy “borrowing” batches of DSC-contract guns in the first half of 1942.

It may be impossible to positively confirm what is the case here unless there is a forensic way to prove or disprove original trademarked parkerizing on the gun. I’m not up on the science of this.

The finish you are referring to is called “ Parkerizing “, and like others here, I would advise against having it re-Parkerized due to the reduction in actual and esthetic value that would cause.
The imperfections the gun has are part of it’s story.
There are resources out there ( some of them post here ) that can probably shed light on some of it’s manufacturing, shipping, and issue history.

Well maybe one of you guys with superior access to 'Ole Roy can get it all cleared up.

The finish you are referring to is called “ Parkerizing “, and like others here, I would advise against having it re-Parkerized due to the reduction in actual and esthetic value that would cause.
The imperfections the gun has are part of it’s story.
There are resources out there ( some of them post here ) that can probably shed light on some of it’s manufacturing, shipping, and issue history.

That's him. Thanks!

Can anyone post that photo?

I agree that refinishing a Victory model is money wasted, insofar as value is concerned, however very few Victory models, or Pre-Victory models were finished in real "Parkerizing" as when S&W found out that Parkerizing was a patented process ang they would have to pay royalties, they stopped using it and developed their own dull finishing. Some yrs ago I researched about 100 factory letters for Victory models, noting the types of finishes cited, Brush blue, midnight black, Parkerized, sand blast blue, etc. I queried Roy on what he used to describe the finish in each Victory Model letter he furnished collectors. Roy replied that he tried to use what ever the invoice listed for each gun. Later when the records were digitized by the SWHF and an invoice was furnished with each Victory model letter, I noticed that sometimes times the finish listed on the invoice did not match the info. in the letter. And occasionally when having the letter, invoice and the gun in hand, the still original finish on the gun did not seem to match either the letter or the invoice. All goes to say that during the war time productions efforts, S&Ws workers were not sweating the small stuff. Ed # 15

Airman 1st Class William H. Pitsenbarger: Profile | Military.com

William H. Pitsenbarger - Wikipedia

CONTENTdm

A true bad ***** if we can still say that about anyone anymore and not get into trouble for saying so. Looks like they made a movie about him recently and I'll need to search it out.

As a Victory "accumulator" I can't help but notice how he kept his trusty revolver close at hand.

"Collecting weapons and ammunition from the dead, he passed them to wounded soldiers, even giving his own pistol to one man who was so badly hurt he could not hold a rifle."

I wonder where his Victory revolver is today......and if the present owner even knows of it's history?

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There is an exhibit on Airman Pitsenbarger at the National Museum of the USAF, at Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio...

Airman 1st Class William H. Pitsenbarger > National Museum of the United States Air Force™ > Display

The film is called "The Last Full Measure"...released earlier this year.

The Last Full Measure (2019) - IMDb

Airman Pitsenbarger is buried near his hometown of Piqua, Ohio.

http://www.miamimemorialpark.org/veteran-memorial.html

There is a GoFundMe page to raise money for a memorial to him at the cemetery...

Fundraiser by Lora Aleo : William Hart Pitsenbarger Medal of Honor Memorial

Thank you for this post and photos.

No, thank you.......as it was quite a good read.

And not too terribly far off-topic as him being from the OP's state and all.

I find it "interesting" that he is wearing a leather gun belt as well as a military issue duty belt in the pictures.

The holster looks to possibly be a commercial S&W style holster.......but I'm just not certain. Maybe one of the S&W holster gurus can chime in as to if it may be?

I wonder if his parents got his leather gun rig back with the rest of his personal effects? (I didn't see it in the display of his personal effects shown in the National Air Force Museum link.)

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Those rigs were common in Vietnam--made by locals, often from buffalo hide.

__________________
Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Now I really want to see it.

Just took a short trip down the Vietnam war era Vietnamese made gun belt rabbit hole.

Neat stuff that I never knew anything about!

Those were pretty common. I knew airmen who wore them. All had Viet service.

Many were never issued holsters. Supply was out when another AP and I arrived at Lowry AFB from tech school, the AF police academy. Our boss had us buy them in Denver, at our expense! I wore a copy of a Lawrence Model 24, soon replaced by Bianchi Model 5 and a Safariland Model 29. And had made a Jordan style for a .45 auto. No one cared, either there or in Newfoundland. Had we been on the SAC Elite Guard, that was different.

I didn't like the official swivel holster, which flopped and beat your leg in a foot chase and offered a slow draw. I once worked with an OSI agent who badly needed a better concealment holster. I referred him to Chic Gaylord.

The Republic of Vietnam Historical Society Blog: Vietnamese Made Holsters

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tenntex32,

Just a comment on your gorgeous old war horses you posted; they bracket the serial # orientation change.

1942 butt serial # orientation change:

• Since M&Ps were made all thru the war, the actual change transition period in the M&P series from reading with barrel to the right, to the end of the original M&P serial range of 1,000,000. And began reading with barrel to the left at the beginning of the V serial # range, both with # offset to the rear due to the lanyard ring.

• For all models the Pre war serial # on the butt is right reading and centered w/o a lanyard swivel, including serial numbers which are on the forestrap; sq butt I frames and Single Shots. After WW II the # is left reading and all #s are offset to the rear of the butt; except forestrap serial numbers which remained right reading until last used in 1957 on the .32 Regulation Police I Frame Target model.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819