Not sure what my nephew picked up in a gunshop. Looks like a Victory, has the smooth grips. No foreign or US property markings. I'm attaching pics. Serial number seems much too late though

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Yep! A pre V series victory probably made in 1942 before the V serial numbers began. It's pretty clean. I don't see any acceptance stamps or proof marks. They may be there just not in your pictures. Someone will be along shortly that can tell you more about it.

Guy

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

I was unaware of "pre VM" in 4" 38 Special. Assumed they were all British destined.

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No life story has happy end.

Numbers all match, I didn't include the shot of the cylinder.

Looks like 974756, not 100% sure. I list 974226 as shipping on 4/17/42, which is a DSC gun (pre-Victory) in .38 Special. Without any markings, this one is very likely to also be a DSC gun. BSRs would have the UNITED STATES PROPERTY topstrap stamping at that time. There are Navy pre-Victories known around that SN, which may or may not have the U. S. NAVY property stamp, as I am not sure at what SN the Navy guns started having the property stamp. I know some having slightly higher SNs were stamped.

974756 is the serial number and thank you. Are these guns particularly scarce? I do not know very much about them.

You can't say that pre-Victories are scarce, but there were far more made in the V-series. Also, most pre-Victories were BSRs. Looks to be original and in pretty good condition, and it would be attractive in the $400-$450 price range. DSC guns are frequently found in higher condition, as they didn't see military service.

Makes sense. Finally found Pate's book. He says:
352315 SW .38 Special revolvers bought by USG
22,500 to DSC
65,000 to USN
264,815 to Army
SN range: 835,000 to SV811000
Shipments from 7/41 to 9/45

This needs a bit of clarification:

Almost all of the number you list as going “to the Army” went to the Navy and the DSC too.

With a few exceptions, the Navy was the primary user of the Victory, not the Army. But a change in the purchasing procedure meant that from mid-1943 on the revolvers went through Army Supply Program contracts.

According to Pate, if you look at the procurement notes, at least another 67,500 guns went to the DSC under ASP contracts, after the 22,500 on direct contracts you mentioned.

Absalom, thank you. I'm way over my head. I just dug into Pate's book and tossed his figures out. I seem to recall reading somewhere exactly what you are saying. Plenty of Navy/Marine pilots hauling Victorys around. Didn't see too many of them being carried by Army officers. It would take me another three weeks to get through what Pate has to say. I'm wondering if this gun is worth lettering? It might be possible to find out where it went. My nephew says it is in beautiful condition. He can't find ANY markings on it other than factory.

The highlighted parts in this quote are also a bit off. Research since Pate's book was published has changed the picture a bit.

Records show the highest serial number on a Victory Model that shipped to the military in WWII was SV802722. That gun shipped to the Norfolk Navy Yard in Norfolk, VA, on August 13, 1945.

That was also the last shipment to the Navy, and for good reason. The next day, August 14, 1945, Japan capitulated. Contracts for munitions were abruptly stopped and no more revolvers were sent by S&W. It is true that the actual Japanese surrender did not take place on the USS Missouri until September 2, but the war ended on August 14.

There is no evidence that I can find of any shipments of Victory revolvers to the Navy in September.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

If it is indeed a DSC contract gun, there is a good chance that the letter should reveal the end user. At some point in spring 1942 the DSC stopped actually receiving and distributing the guns, and just cleared the paperwork for S&W to ship directly to the recipient. I think your serial is late enough for that to be a good possibility.

Later DSC guns all had the flaming bomb ordnance mark on the butt, but in 1942 many had indeed no markings at all beyond the regular factory stampings.

0132:

If it was my gun I would certainly have it lettered. It was made and shipped at a critical time in the U.S.A's involvement in WW2. Guns were flying off of the production line at S&W and heading for a wide variety of destinations.

From the Victory Model Database I can say that 4 inch .38 Special guns in the 974000 range went to destinations as diverse as the U.S. Navy, Anacostia Electric Co., Austin Powder, the Manchester Conn. Police Dept., the Tennessee Valley Authority, and the Freehold, NJ Sheriff's Office.

If you do get it lettered I hope that you will report back here with results. It is a beautiful revolver and I for one would sure like to know where it went to from the factory.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

All, thanks so much for your evaluation of this revolver and my education as well as my nephew's. He is a young S&W enthusiast, able to cruise gun shops while working. I'm pretty proud of him for spotting this one and the price he paid for it, in the range of $300.

Ordnanceguy, I'm preparing a letter request for him and will send it out today.

Kind regards!!!!!

I have this information in my notes, but I don't show the origin:

Army 590,305 (Army program, most were BSRs and Navy)
U. S. Navy 258,626
Defense Supplies Corporation 73,932
South Africa 21,347
Australia 8,000
British Purchasing Commission 112,854
Canada 45,238
Total 1,110,392

If it is DSC (which it probably is), it likely went to some stateside law enforcement agency or to a defense contractor for arming plant security guards. During WWII, it was next to impossible for ordinary civilians to purchase new handguns. Some DSC guns are seen as having engravings/markings indicating the company or LE agency, but those would usually have been applied outside the S&W factory. There were also some non-DSC guns without topstrap property stampings which went to the U. S. Maritime Commission (Merchant Marine) and to the OSS.

This is a little thing which should be kept in mind: The official recipient of all Lend-Lease revolvers were not the British or whoever ended up with the guns, but US Army Ordnance where they shipped from the factory. Until the various post-war agreements which settled what was written off, returnable, or to be paid for, the BSRs were US Army property.

The 67,500 I quoted above just totalled up two Army contracts that acc. to Pate went entirely to the DSC. There are others that appear split. So if you add the 22,500 from the DSC-direct contracts, you end up with a DSC total likely topping 100,000.

For this gun that was an excellent buy. Even adding the cost of the letter you‘re still below what this one could bring on an auction site.

"From the Victory Model Database I can say that 4 inch .38 Special guns in the 974000 range went to destinations as diverse as the U.S. Navy, Anacostia Electric Co., Austin Powder, the Manchester Conn. Police Dept., the Tennessee Valley Authority, and the Freehold, NJ Sheriff's Office."

And the Arkansas Ordnance Plant.

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Just got ship date on this revolver, April, 1942, to Defense Supply Corporation. Thanks all so much. Now to get the letter off.