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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 10-09-2020, 03:20 PM
jim0383 jim0383 is offline
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I've been on the lookout for a nice pencil barrel model 10 to use as a shooter. I never really planned on looking for a pre-model 10 gun as I occasionally shoot plus p and wanted to make sure I had the newest hammer safety design.

Came across this at a local shop, and it was too good to pass up. However I am curious as to what I got, as my 3rd Edition of the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson says this shouldn't exist.

Serial number is C2146xx, which would put it as produced in 1948-1951, but it's got the ramped barrel and newer hammer of guns that started shipping after 1952.

Is this unique enough that I should not be firing it, or can I blast away. The gun is in pristine shape and the grips, frame and cylinder are all serial number matched.

Also, what's with the hole at the bottom of the frame? Never seen that before.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 10-09-2020, 03:24 PM
jim0383 jim0383 is offline
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The frame hole.
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Old 10-09-2020, 04:04 PM
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.38 M&P Pre-Model 10 serial C151961 was shipped in February 1952. Pre-Model 10 serial C271552 was shipped in December 1953. I think there is a good chance yours shipped in late 1952 or early 1953.


The hole in the frame IIRC was for the blueing tank jig. The frames were hung on that before dunking. Or rather, put in the gas for Carbonia bluing at the time.
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Old 10-09-2020, 04:09 PM
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.38 M&P Pre-Model 10 serial C151961 was shipped in February 1952. Pre-Model 10 serial C271552 was shipped in December 1953. I think there is a good chance yours shipped in late 1952 or early 1953.


The hole in the frame IIRC was for the blueing tank jig. The frames were hung on that before dunking. Or rather, put in the gas for Carbonia bluing at the time.
Thanks for the info! So what I'm hearing is: shoot away!
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Old 10-09-2020, 04:16 PM
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Yeah. I'd shoot it.
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Old 10-09-2020, 06:12 PM
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jim0383

Guy gave you good information.

C218272, which is fairly close to your serial number, shipped in September, 1952. But serial numbers and ship dates jump around quite a bit. Guy stated that C151961 shipped in February 1952, but C151763 shipped in April, 1951. And my wife owns C150035, which shipped in February, 1951. So, without Dr. Jinks checking the records, we really don't know when yours left Springfield.

What is interesting is the stocks on yours. They have the tapered shoulder, which started showing up in late 1952 and were standard by 1953. I'd like to know if the number stamped into the wood on the inside of the right hand panel matches the number on the butt of the gun. If so, those Magnas are original to the gun. I believe that would be one of the lowest serial numbers I've found with that style of stocks.

The jig hole starts showing up in the very late 1940s. It seems to have passed out of use sometime in the mid-1950s.

Your hammer is the normal "High Speed" hammer that first appeared in March, 1948. Nothing unusual about it on an early 1950s M&P.

The ramp front sight started in the early 1950s. The half moon sight lasted longer on the 2" guns, so that may be what has you confused.
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Old 10-09-2020, 08:56 PM
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jim0383

Guy gave you good information.

C218272, which is fairly close to your serial number, shipped in September, 1952. But serial numbers and ship dates jump around quite a bit. Guy stated that C151961 shipped in February 1952, but C151763 shipped in April, 1951. And my wife owns C150035, which shipped in February, 1951. So, without Dr. Jinks checking the records, we really don't know when yours left Springfield.

What is interesting is the stocks on yours. They have the tapered shoulder, which started showing up in late 1952 and were standard by 1953. I'd like to know if the number stamped into the wood on the inside of the right hand panel matches the number on the butt of the gun. If so, those Magnas are original to the gun. I believe that would be one of the lowest serial numbers I've found with that style of stocks.

The jig hole starts showing up in the very late 1940s. It seems to have passed out of use sometime in the mid-1950s.

Your hammer is the normal "High Speed" hammer that first appeared in March, 1948. Nothing unusual about it on an early 1950s M&P.

The ramp front sight started in the early 1950s. The half moon sight lasted longer on the 2" guns, so that may be what has you confused.
Numbers match on the barrel, frame, cylinder and grips, hopefully the pictures show that.

Thanks for the info!
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Old 10-09-2020, 10:21 PM
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To answer one of your questions, you should be fine for occasional.38 Special +P usage.

Thanks for sharing your pre 10.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:58 PM
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Thanks all! The grips are safely stored away and the gun will hit the range soon.
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Old 11-05-2020, 10:56 PM
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Thanks again for all the info/advice. I was able to get it out to the range, what a sweet shooter.

Thought you might enjoy, new Kingwood from Houge:
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Old 11-06-2020, 10:06 AM
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Mainstream +P ammo is not loaded to high chamber pressure. But just to be safe, I would limit it to no more than 400,000 rounds. OK, maybe 500,000.
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Old 11-06-2020, 10:20 AM
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Some will refer to that hammer design as the "Fish Hook". Never quite understood why as, at least to me, it doesn't resemble a fish hook. It was the first "High Speed" hammer design used until the early 50s, when it was replaced by a semi-target style hammer spur. Nothing is unique about it, it's just a typical pre-Model 10. There should be no concerns about using +P ammo with it, although I don't understand why anyone would want to use it instead of regular standard velocity ammo for typical recreational shooting. Truth is that +P ammo is only marginally more powerful than standard ammo, mainly it just uses a lighter bullet at a little higher MV.

Regarding "Transitional," that is a term I will not use as it is essentially undefined and meaningless. As an unofficial description of yours, every collector knows what "pre-Model 10" means.

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Old 11-06-2020, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
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To answer one of your questions, you should be fine for occasional.38 Special +P usage.

Thanks for sharing your pre 10.
You'll also be fine for non-stop +P use for the rest of your life-----if you don't mind paying for it. +P ammo was brought forth into our lives as a "new and improved" item so as to justify the extra cost-----never mind the only thing new about it was the cost. You may wish to compare (whatever aspects of +P ammo you choose) with those from earlier times (pre-war)---and then perhaps favor us with with a short essay on any and all of the "+" aspects----and the magnitude thereof. And if you don't mind the extra work say a few words about what the "newest hammer safety design" has to do with +P ammo.

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Old 11-06-2020, 11:36 AM
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The WWII 4" .38spl Victory's military ammo was a 158gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 850fps.

That is now considered a +P offering by many modern ammo manufacturers. I too tend to agree that the original .38spl (non +P) ammo has been downgraded over the years just to allow wiggle room for a +P loading.

CCI 38 Special +P Ammunition Blazer 3519 158 Grain Full Metal Jacket 50 Rounds

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Old 11-06-2020, 01:49 PM
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The WWII 4" .38spl Victory's military ammo was a 158gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 850fps.

That is now considered a +P offering by many modern ammo manufacturers. I too tend to agree that the original .38spl (non +P) ammo has been downgraded over the years just to allow wiggle room for a +P loading.

CCI 38 Special +P Ammunition Blazer 3519 158 Grain Full Metal Jacket 50 Rounds
Some here forget that velocities are now measured in four-inch vented barrels, not in longer pressure barrels. Actual velocity hasn't necessarily decreased.

Nor is all Plus P ammo loaded with light bullets. At least a couple of firms make hi-speed 158 grain ammo, one on par with old .38-44 ammo, but with better bullets.

I'd have bought a Model 64 for Plus P capability and to get stainless, but this gun should handle occasional Plus P use. That's not range ammo.

And I SERIOUSLY disagree that the RIGHT Plus P isn't more effective than standard loads. Many police shootings make this clear.
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Old 11-06-2020, 01:54 PM
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The standard .38 load is about a 50% one-shot stopper and gave that cartri dge a poor rep.

Also, the OP's gun has the newer ramp front sight as well as the squiggle hammer. If the bbl. is original, I'd guess 1952 or later.

Back about 1965, Sales Mgr. Fred Miller told me I could fire .38-44 ammo in a Model 10, but if I planned to do it much to get a .38-44 or a .357, as smaller guns would develop cylinder endshake or other problems sooner.

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Old 11-06-2020, 03:13 PM
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The standard .38 load is about a 50% one-shot stopper and gave that cartri dge a poor rep.

Also, the OP's gun has the newer ramp front sight as well as the squiggle hammer. If the bbl. is original, I'd guess 1952 or later.

Back about 1965, Sales Mgr. Fred Miller told me I could fire .38-44 ammo in a Model 10, but if I planned to do it much to get a .38-44 or a .357, as smaller guns would develop cylinder endshake or other problems sooner.
And for those of you you may be wondering what .38/44 ammo is/was, there's this from a mid 1930's catalog from S&W---showing four different .38 Special loads available at your local hardware store: ".38 S. & W. Special Mid Range at 825 fps, .38 S. & W. Special at 950fps, .38 S. & W. Special Super Speed at 1100 fps, and .38/44 S. & W. Special at 1226fps. I reckon we'd call those Regular, +P, +PP, +PPP today.

And for those who will tell us these velocities aren't real world---that they were obtained with special test barrels, the special test barrel used here was on an 8 3/4" .357 Magnum (and it poked a Magnum bullet out at 1512 fps)---and the testing was done by the folks at Winchester Repeating Arms Company.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 11-06-2020, 04:30 PM
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The .38 Mid-Range WC usually clocks at from 700-750 fps. There was once a full power WC at a nominal 850 FPS, probably from a six-inch bbl.

I think Buffalo Bore may make it now.

Maj. George Nonte said it was a good defense round. Prob. is, but if I shot a man or a big rabid raccoon, I think I'd want ample expansion with good penetration. Placement, as ever, is vital.
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Old 11-06-2020, 05:26 PM
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While velocities may not have necessarily decreased in 4" barrel tested factory ammo it is now typically considered +P territory for a jacketed bullet in the 850fps or above range for the larger U.S. manufacturers when fired from a 4" barrel.

I have seen this in numerous modern ammo offerings from the larger ammo manufacturers as well as modern'ish reloading manuals as well as their online data.

That being said there are a couple of smaller ammo makers out there offering some rather powerful 158gr loads at the far extreme +P end of the spectrum......if not pushing it just a wee bit past what some may even consider modern era accepted +P value pressure. But typically we see those as lead 158gr bullets and not necessarily jacketed, to help lower the pressure rating.

Of course there may be exceptions found from some companies willing to push the modern era 158gr+P ammo velocity trends. Speer does offer a 900fps 158gr TMJ Lawman +P factory load that is advertised at 900fps from a vented 4" barrel. I would love to eventually chronograph it from a true 4" revolver to see if it is actually 900fps or if it's "real world" 4-inch revolver velocity is closer to the 850fps we would expect from WWII era Victory revolvers and the military 158gr FMJ ammo of that period.

I have also chronographed some European (RWS) made 158gr FMJ FP 38spl ammo from a 4" revolver at close to 900fps. (It was not labelled as +P on the box, nor would I always expect to see that from European produced ammo as they don't always play our SAAMI +P game with regards to .38spl ammo.) It was advertised, at least online when I purchased it, at 945fps with no mention as to barrel length. I can only assume it was a 6" test barrel. I can no longer find the online reference to the RWS 158gr FMJ FP velocity as it seems they changed their website info up somewhat now.

The current Hodgdon online data for 38spl and 38spl+P still shows a 7.7" test barrel for their loads with 158gr jacketed bullets with velocities up to 924fps for non+P loads, and up 981fps for +P loads. Once again that is much longer 7.7" barrel data so it would be safe to say we would probably be below 900fps in a 4" revolver.

My "newish" 2003 Sierra 5th Edition manual data for 158gr jacketed bullets shows them pushing them to similar velocities as the much older manuals I have accumulated......up to 1000fps from a 6" K38. (Funny enough, and also like the much older manuals I own, there is absolutely no mention of +P anything by Sierra with regards to their 38spl data in this particular "newish" manual!) I feel Sierra's faster data, even if tested in a 6" revolver, tends to buck the more modern slower data trend that manufacturers tend to provide for the 158gr jacketed bullets.

My 2003 Hornady 6th Edition manual shows 850fps +P loads only and no non+P 850fps loads at all for 158gr jacketed bullets when tested from a 4" model 15. (Once again their 850fps 158gr jacketed +P data puts us right smack dab where WWII 158gr FMJ velocities were when fired from a 4" Victory in WWII.)

My old 1967 Lyman manual shows 158gr-160gr jacketed .38special loads (no mention of +P whatsoever mind you) up to 960fps-985fps when fired from a 6" Model 14. (My thinking is these would possibly be 900fps loads or more when fired from a 4" revolver.)

My old 1966 Speer manual shows them loading their 160gr jacketed bullets to 1010fps (also no mention of +P) when fired from a 6" barrel. (I also feel these would still be 900fps or possibly more from a 4" example.)

So as you can see I feel most any modern 158gr jacketed load rated at +P and in the 850fps range when tested from a 4" barrel is nothing more than a traditional (pre+P era) 4" 38spl jacketed load..............and maybe even a tad less by many reloading manual standards, especially those from yesteryear.

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Old 11-06-2020, 09:57 PM
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jim0383,
Nice gun. The term "Transitional" does not apply to this gun in any way. It can be called a ".38 M&P" or a "Pre Model 10".


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What is interesting is the stocks on yours. They have the tapered shoulder, which started showing up in late 1952 and were standard by 1953. I'd like to know if the number stamped into the wood on the inside of the right hand panel matches the number on the butt of the gun. If so, those Magnas are original to the gun. I believe that would be one of the lowest serial numbers I've found with that style of stocks.
Jack,
His gun has 'Modified Magnas', aka 'Plainclothes Magnas'. The ramp sight and those grips are first offered as options in the 1952 catalog. All I have ever seen have the rounded shoulder.
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Old 11-06-2020, 10:24 PM
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Jack,
His gun has 'Modified Magnas', aka 'Plainclothes Magnas'. The ramp sight and those grips are first offered as options in the 1952 catalog. All I have ever seen have the rounded shoulder.
Thank you, Lee. I guess I just didn't notice the rounded bottom edge. I appreciate your effort to "keep me honest."
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Old 11-07-2020, 08:00 PM
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Smile S&W Model 10

It seems to me that "any" S&W Model 10 with its K frame is one of the most representative revolvers of all time, as well as the Model 15 in 2" or 4" barrel. Also the Model 19 and Model 66 in 21/2" barrel in either 4" or 2" barrel are "perfect" for self defense and home defense guns ( they can be shot accurately in youngster hands as well as female hands, and at the range or outdoors IŽll stick for a 2" Model 10 or Model 15,or a 2 1/2" Model 19 or 66 in .357 Magnum up to 15yds they are AWESOME, very accurate and quick they quikly deliver their 6 shots in double action without malfunctions.For more longer ranges, and up to 50-75yds stick to 4" barrel o any of thes Models.
I ownwed A Model 10-7 2" and presently qwn a Model 10-9 4" both werw and are extremely handy and accurate!!!!
Preserve your Pre Model 10 and use only range ammo, the regular 158gr Lead or the 148gr Lead Wadcutter for more accuracy, you may be surprised in you scores at the range with this ammo!!!!!
Best Regards, from a Model 10 enthusiast!!!!..
RR
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Old 11-07-2020, 08:53 PM
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jim0383,

I think your gun looks great with those Hogue grips and makes me see why the gun was too good for you to pass up.

George
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Old 11-07-2020, 09:19 PM
Texas Star Texas Star is offline
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Originally Posted by Roberto Renauld View Post
It seems to me that "any" S&W Model 10 with its K frame is one of the most representative revolvers of all time, as well as the Model 15 in 2" or 4" barrel. Also the Model 19 and Model 66 in 21/2" barrel in either 4" or 2" barrel are "perfect" for self defense and home defense guns ( they can be shot accurately in youngster hands as well as female hands, and at the range or outdoors IŽll stick for a 2" Model 10 or Model 15,or a 2 1/2" Model 19 or 66 in .357 Magnum up to 15yds they are AWESOME, very accurate and quick they quikly deliver their 6 shots in double action without malfunctions.For more longer ranges, and up to 50-75yds stick to 4" barrel o any of thes Models.
I ownwed A Model 10-7 2" and presently qwn a Model 10-9 4" both werw and are extremely handy and accurate!!!!
Preserve your Pre Model 10 and use only range ammo, the regular 158gr Lead or the 148gr Lead Wadcutter for more accuracy, you may be surprised in you scores at the range with this ammo!!!!!
Best Regards, from a Model 10 enthusiast!!!!..
RR

How common are S& W guns in Argentina, how do prices compare to those in the USA, and what is .38 and .357 ammo availability like there?

Any restrictions on hollow point ammo?

I like your posts. We don't have many S. American members.
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  #25  
Old 11-08-2020, 03:41 PM
jim0383 jim0383 is offline
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Originally Posted by handejector View Post
jim0383,
Nice gun. The term "Transitional" does not apply to this gun in any way. It can be called a ".38 M&P" or a "Pre Model 10".



Jack,
His gun has 'Modified Magnas', aka 'Plainclothes Magnas'. The ramp sight and those grips are first offered as options in the 1952 catalog. All I have ever seen have the rounded shoulder.
Thanks for the info Lee.
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Old 11-08-2020, 03:41 PM
jim0383 jim0383 is offline
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Originally Posted by george_lehr View Post
jim0383,

I think your gun looks great with those Hogue grips and makes me see why the gun was too good for you to pass up.

George
Thanks George, nothing beats a smooth K Frame trigger pull.
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  #27  
Old 11-08-2020, 04:18 PM
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DWalt DWalt is online now
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The idea behind the "Plainclothes" grip design was to reduce print of the gun's outline through clothing and reduce wear on jacket linings for those cops who carried concealed. It was used only on service guns, not on K-series adjustable sight revolvers.

Last edited by DWalt; 11-08-2020 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 11-08-2020, 05:41 PM
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It was used only on service guns, not on K-series adjustable sight revolvers.
Except on the 2" Model 15.
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Old 11-10-2020, 06:59 PM
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Roberto Renauld Roberto Renauld is offline
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Default S&W in Argentina

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
How common are S& W guns in Argentina, how do prices compare to those in the USA, and what is .38 and .357 ammo availability like there?

Any restrictions on hollow point ammo?

I like your posts. We don't have many S. American members.
Good afternoon Sir:
Nice to hear from you "Texas Star"!!!!....
S&W guns are very common in Argentina more common than Colt or Ruger handguns, I must say that they were imported regulary to my Country from 1978 till 1995, today they are not so commonly available brand new, but commonly available used in very good condition, as for the price I must say that brand new S&W revolvers are three times more the price in USA,.38 Special and .357 Magnum factory is commonly available in Argentina, the Hollow Point ammo is only allowed for hunting, but not for personal defense for this purpose you must stick to FMJ and Lead Nose,also you may use JSP but no hollow points for personal defense.That is why the .45ACP Auto caliber is so popular as well as 9mm and .38 Special (this last one for target use, or personal defense in Lead Round Nose)
We shall keep "in touch"!!!,Thanks from a S. American member
Best Wishes
RR
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