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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 10-17-2020, 03:05 PM
Dmac18 Dmac18 is offline
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Default Hand ejector adjustable sights

This is my first post on this fabulous forum. I am hoping someone will have some info for me. I’ve always wanted one of these large frame 455’s and just purchased this one yesterday. Eagerly awaiting arrival.

I only have the photos from the auction site for now, so not all the markings are visible. It has adjustable sights. Serial #8746 - left side marked with British broad arrow, beneath that is a crown mark of some sort, and beneath that a Roman numeral two, “II”. Left side of barrel marked Is “Smith & Wesson”, right side of frame has the big logo, and there are no caliber markings that I can see on the barrel.

Any additional info would be much appreciated. Thanks.

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Old 10-17-2020, 03:19 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! That's a second model .455 double action revolver. I doubt that it shipped to that way. The rear sight looks after market to me. But somebody that knows will be along soon.

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Old 10-17-2020, 03:21 PM
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Welcome to the forum.

You won a pretty nice ".455 Hand Ejector 2nd Model" with after market sights added. It'll be a great shooter.

It's of the 3rd variation made under contract for the British Commonwealth:

3. “.455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), and the cylinder ctr pin hole in the extractor star is reduced .020” with the associated Ext Rod rear tip reduced .020” in diameter from the TL versions, the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and the ".455 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" produced in .455 (documented in Neal & Jinks Pg. 215-16.) This version was referred to as the MK II revolver by the British and stamped ‘II’ by them, upper left rear side of frame. The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range and beginning ~#5801 (previously thought to be 5462) to #74755, shipped 1915-17.


By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, without a cartridge roll mark on barrel, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, 3rd ed., pg. 203]. #74744

Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916; likely “over run” guns from the above order with consecutive #s. Only#46748 is known.

The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].

And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].
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Old 10-17-2020, 03:25 PM
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Thank you for the amazingly speedy reply! I’m itching to have it in my hands.
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Old 10-17-2020, 04:04 PM
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One of the collectors (Sixgunstrumpet) on this fourm has/had several fixed sight guns that were modified like yours. Hopefully he'll come along shortly and chime in... I have always liked that modification.

Thanks for sharing and welcome to the forum.
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Old 10-17-2020, 06:02 PM
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I've never seen one but 'The Book' (SCSW4) says a few of the earlier .455 Triple Locks were factory-fitted with a drift-adjustable rear sight blade in order to be permissible for Bisley (England) competition.
I doubt the 2nd Model pictured above is factory, but odds are good, that is what it was converted for.
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Old 11-08-2020, 02:39 PM
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Default Additional photos 455 adjustable sights 2nd serial number

Thank you for all the feedback. I now have additional photos of my new revolver. After doing some research on this forum I discovered a mismatched serial number. I am enclosing closer angles on the markings and the sights, which I am curious about. Any info greatly appreciated!
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Old 11-08-2020, 02:42 PM
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Default Hand Ejector 455 additional photos

More photos of sights.
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Old 11-08-2020, 02:47 PM
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Default Hand ejector 455 additional photos

More photos of the sights and markings.
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Old 11-08-2020, 02:51 PM
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Default Hand Ejector 455 photos

And the last of the photos!
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Old 11-08-2020, 03:35 PM
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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! That's a second model .455 Hand Ejector that was in England probably from World War I was proofed at Enfield and sold out of service. I can't tell if there's still a Ledge in the cylinder Chambers or not. It could have been reamed for 45 Colt. The sights were probably added after it left service.

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Old 11-08-2020, 04:18 PM
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Doubt it is 45 colt. Back of cylinder not shaved because you can still see the serial number and no recesses around the chambers for the thicker colt rims. I don't think the recoil shield was shaved either because the gap between the rear of cylinder and frame looks kind of tight. Plus if you look hard it there does seem to be a bit of shadow ahead of the carbon spots where you can look in the chambers on the last picture of post #8. I may be wrong and recoil shield trimmed and shadow is left from where reaming started.

Interesting and simple sight mod that appears fairly well done. Odd that whoever used one pin and one screw. Wonder if rear of front sight is set up so you can loosen the screw and pivot sight up or down a bit on front pin, then tighten to lock in place for minor elevation adjustments. It does appear to be a assembly of parts from several guns.

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Old 11-08-2020, 04:38 PM
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That's a very unique .455 2nd model!!

The front adjustable sight blade is clearly the Colt design first used on the Model 1873 SAA and Bisley SAA Target models (along with a drift adj rear sight blade) in the 1890s for Bisley matches. So an adjustable front blade may have been allowed at the time. Colt also used these target sights on pre war Colt DA target revolvers. Loosening the rear screw does allow the blade to move up and down for elevation adj.

Your .455 certainly may have modified sights for the Bisley Matches. A front adjustable sight is not now allowed. However I don't know that they weren't allowed during the period of your .455. The Colt front sight on their target guns of the period were certainly intended for the Bisley matches, therefore the name "Bisley" used on one of their models.

Adjustable rear target sights for the Bisley matches were limited to windage drift adjustment only. Hence why so many factory and aftermarket windage-adjustable-only rear sight blades were added to fixed sight S&Ws instead of using factory adjustable sights. Here's an example of the S&W factory Bisley legal rear sight installation:

Increasingly more Interesting Triple Lock *update*-bisley-tl-drift-adj-sight-jpg
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Old 11-08-2020, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa View Post
One of the collectors (Sixgunstrumpet) on this sight has/had several fixed sight guns that were modified like yours. Hopefully he'll come along shortly and chime in... I have always liked that modification.

Thanks for sharing and welcome to the forum.
I totally missed this, apparently was a little busy at the time the thread first popped up.

Jim, in the above post, outlined exactly what I think is going on here.

The only thing I can add is that I've only successfully identified two specific "fixed sight target" jobbers; Frank Pachmayr and DW King, and this particular job does not share any features of either of those.

I will say that whoever did the work was good, certainly one of the best jobs of this type I have seen.
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Old 11-08-2020, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Dmac18 View Post
Thank you for all the feedback. I now have additional photos of my new revolver. After doing some research on this forum I discovered a mismatched serial number. I am enclosing closer angles on the markings and the sights, which I am curious about. Any info greatly appreciated!
I presume that the #s on the yoke and in the yoke cut out of the frame are those you consider mismatched, But I'm happy to confirm that they are not because they are not serial #s, they are assembly #s.


SERIAL # LOCATIONS: To confirm all parts are original, one can check for the 6 (or 7 - Triple Lock models only) matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956 and a few as much as 3 years later.
NOTE: Observing serial #s with accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!

1. Grip frame butt (prefixed by a letter(s) following WWII) - or fore strap on I frame Regulation Police models and single shots with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud, (Triple locks have tiny #s stamped in front end of the shroud; sideways/vertical if over 3 numerical digits, otherwise horizontal).

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight (except the .32 Model 1896 and no doubt a few others)

4. Extractor star – backside (which is actually the side facing the muzzle).

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - on back, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material, stamped after 1929, (except most post war target grips because individual fitting not required.)

7. .44 TL models only: rear side of middle lock cam plate (Triple Lock models only)

Pre war serial #s on the butt read with barrel to the right and are centered, or offset if produced with a lanyard swivel (factory installed swivels are drilled with a jig and always 1/10” forward of center). Post war #s read with barrel to the left and are all offset to the rear.


ASSEMBLY (factory work) #s: These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the ‘yoke cut’ of the frame opposite the yoke near the hinge (usually accompanied with the inspector’s letter or # code stamp of approval, but not always), and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period thru ~early 1958.

After 1957 Model #s were assigned and stamped on the frame in the yoke cut. The serial # was soon after added in the ‘yoke cut’ as well and the assembly # moved to the left side of the grip frame parallel to the butt. More currently beginning in the 1980’s we see non-matching multi-digit numbers parallel to the butt left or right side, and inside the side plate. Once the gun is shipped, the only use for the assembly # is to confirm the three parts it's stamped on, are original to the gun. These are still in use to this day.
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Old 11-13-2020, 02:32 PM
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Thank you so much for the amazingly detailed information. Very interesting.
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Old 11-13-2020, 06:00 PM
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I found it interesting that the Brits didn't care for the enshrouded ejector rod on the Triple Lock (1st Model H.E.) and requested it be removed, hence the 2nd Model H.E. was designed the way it was without an ejector shroud. After the war it was added back on the 3rd Model H.E. and stayed with us. Please correct me if I'm off the mark. From what I remember the Brits thought mud could get in the shroud when the cylinder was opened and make it nearly impossible to close the cylinder, which does make some sense. I've always been a fan of the 2nd Model H.E., I think they are more graceful looking, if a firearm can be graceful. I've heard firearms referred to as elegant, I wouldn't go that far.
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Old 11-13-2020, 06:19 PM
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I found it interesting that the Brits didn't care for the enshrouded ejector rod on the Triple Lock (1st Model H.E.) and requested it be removed, hence the 2nd Model H.E. was designed the way it was without an ejector shroud. After the war it was added back on the 3rd Model H.E. and stayed with us. Please correct me if I'm off the mark. From what I remember the Brits thought mud could get in the shroud when the cylinder was opened and make it nearly impossible to close the cylinder, which does make some sense. I've always been a fan of the 2nd Model H.E., I think they are more graceful looking, if a firearm can be graceful. I've heard firearms referred to as elegant, I wouldn't go that far.
Apparently "trenches mud" and the shrouded ejector rod didn't get along well. Besides that, the Brits thought the triple lock thing was over engineered and supefluous in a low pressure round like the .455. And it cost money.
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Old 11-13-2020, 07:39 PM
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Apparently "trenches mud" and the shrouded ejector rod didn't get along well. Besides that, the Brits thought the triple lock thing was over engineered and supefluous in a low pressure round like the .455. And it cost money.
Actually there's a problem with the "jammed with mud" story. In 1914 when the British complained about the triple lock, none had been in the field because the war hadn't even started yet, no deliveries had been made, and the British only had one TL for inspection from S&W.

They only "thought" the gun was too precise and "might" jam with mud*, but also complained it was too heavy, and they didn't want to pay $21 each!

When the war did breakout in August 1914, they gladly ordered and accepted 666 .44 TLs converted to .455 and another ~5800 .455 TL 1st Models. In the meantime S&W geared up to produce .455 2nd Models, having already re-designed the .44 2nd Model long before the British came to them. Because the TL was a slow mover at $21 each, about $2 more than the Colt competition.


*Another interesting factoid about the "jammed with mud" story is that the TL went thru the US Army Trials of 1906 with nary a comment about failing due to jamming with mud.
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Old 11-13-2020, 10:19 PM
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Thanks Jim, great info.
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