Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >

Notices

S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-19-2020, 12:35 PM
fzandome fzandome is offline
Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 25
Likes: 8
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Default Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby

I noticed a lot of information on hammers, sights, and flat latches on the Pre 36 baby, but have not seen much concerning the trigger itself. I am aware of an early 3 digit (10x) half moon with a smooth trigger facing, (no serrations) and own a smooth front ramp with a very fine line serrated trigger surface. I had to use a loop to count the lands and I am not sure I counted them correctly. I have also seen half moon type babies with a heavy serrated trigger, heavier that the one on my 12,xxx example.

Does anybody have information or can point me to previously done work on this specific baby model? It would be great to know when it went from smooth to serrated and if there was only one version of serrations. I believe this would help the community figure out if a trigger replacement occurred on these early guns.

Last edited by fzandome; 10-20-2020 at 09:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #2  
Old 10-19-2020, 12:53 PM
Wiregrassguy's Avatar
Wiregrassguy Wiregrassguy is online now
SWCA Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Ashford, AL
Posts: 4,969
Likes: 20,682
Liked 5,657 Times in 2,095 Posts
Default

I don't know the answer to your question but someone like Hondo44 might. There is a thread on these early CS's that might shed some light. Also, there is a breakdown of the engineering changes in "The History of S&W" by Roy Jinks. The Standard Catalog of S&W by Supica and Nahas gives trigger dimensions but doesn't detail the smooth/serrated changes that might have occurred on the Baby Chiefs.
__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA #2629
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #3  
Old 10-19-2020, 04:42 PM
fzandome fzandome is offline
Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 25
Likes: 8
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Thanks for the reply. I read both the standard catalog (3rd) and Jinks book and they don't go into the weeds that much. 3rd addition indicates that initially they were serrated then change to a "smooth combat trigger"?? Seems at some point they went back to serrated. I have seen a "smooth combat trigger" at serial 10x. I think the community needs to document what really happened on the trigger assemblies.
PS: the more you know about these old guns, the less you know... Starting to love them

Last edited by fzandome; 10-20-2020 at 01:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #4  
Old 10-19-2020, 04:55 PM
fzandome fzandome is offline
Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 25
Likes: 8
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Default

I have looked at a lot of archived photographs of half moon baby's and have found few photographs of the inside of the trigger surface. Straight on photos cannot see this detail. For you old time collectors out there, you probably know what's correct, us "new guy" just don't know! It's the old "Looks good to me"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-19-2020, 09:09 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 16,415
Likes: 8,081
Liked 15,805 Times in 6,619 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fzandome View Post
I am aware of an early 3 digit (10x) half moon with a smooth trigger facing, (no serrations) and own a smooth front ramp with a very fine line serrated surface.
Does anybody have information or can point me to previously done work on this specific baby model? It would be great to know when it went from smooth to serrated and if there was only one version of serrations.

A fine serrated trigger, particularly in the 1XX serial # range can only be one thing, and that's a custom after factory serrated trigger. Do the serrations go in the same direction as the later factory grooved triggers?

Triggers:

1950, Oct 27, Introduction of the J frame .38 Chiefs Special, with .240" smooth trigger that did not last long. #1221 shipped Aug. 1951, is the highest smooth trigger documented but I'm sure they were used longer than that. And there was a long transition period after the first grooved trigger was used, during which both smooth and grooved will be found. Only one style serrated trigger known.

Late 1950s – 1st availability of optional .400” Grooved/.335” Gr & smooth J frame target/combat triggers.

1953 - I and J .400” grooved target trigger available factory installed likely in 1953, at least by 1956 when 1st observed factory installed in #24363 Pre 35. Followed by .335” grooved and smooth.

1984-89 – Standard .265", optional .400” Grooved/.335” Gr & smooth J frame target triggers deleted, .312” smooth combat trigger became standard.

1996 - Mod 36-9 change to MIM Combat trigger (and hammer).


Lots of Chiefs pics here:

Let’s see your J frames
J Frame Photos, Let's See Yours

The Really Old Chief's Special Thread

The Really Old Chief's Special Thread

I hope this helps a little,
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 10-20-2020 at 07:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 10-19-2020, 09:29 PM
JH1951's Avatar
JH1951 JH1951 is online now
US Veteran
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: South-Central PA
Posts: 2,790
Likes: 12,732
Liked 3,803 Times in 1,346 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fzandome View Post
............
Does anybody have information or can point me to previously done work on this specific baby model? It would be great to know when it went from smooth to serrated and if there was only one version of serrations. I believe this would help the community figure out if a trigger replacement occurred on these early guns.
I wish that I had some definition for you, but I don't. All I have is some stuff stuck in my head from who knows where, and some Baby Chiefs Special examples to look at. I will offer what I can and hope that Two-Bit-Cowboy, Hondo, and other knowledgeable folks come along to straighten me out and fill in some blanks.
The info in my head tells me that the very early Baby Chiefs Special had a smooth trigger, and that shortly after production began the factory started using a serrated trigger. With that in mind I pulled out my SCSW 4th Edition to refresh my memory. That effort just muddied up the water for me, because, if I am interpreting the text correctly, the early versions had a .240" serrated trigger, later changed to a .312" smooth combat trigger (this is mentioned twice, pg. 176 and pg. 243). There seems to be no mention of 'when' the changes occurred either by date or serial number range. It is quite possible that the answer we seek is elsewhere in the book and I just haven't found it. Anyway, that conflicts with what I thought and what I have thus far seen.
That brings me to what I have experience with first-hand. I have three Baby Chiefs and there are two trigger variations (without counting the number of trigger serrations), smooth and serrated. My earliest has a smooth trigger (SN 101, so it's pretty early off the line, and there are changes from some that came before it such as the flat-latch thumbpiece). My smooth ramp front sight example SN 63XX has a serrated trigger, and my serrated ramp front sight example SN 388XX also has a serrated trigger. Running ahead several decades I have a Mod. 649 that has a wider smooth trigger. My three early versions all have triggers that measure .240" as close as I can get with an old micrometer, which does match the .240" mentioned in The Catalog.
So, I guess what I have has formed my opinion of what came first. This could be a fault in my thinking if there was an earlier serrated trigger. I know that we are drilling down to real minor detail here, but inquiring minds gotta know!
I recently saw pictures of another 1/2 moon front sight Baby Chiefs (SN 2XXX) with a serrated trigger that just looked odd, so that had me thinking too.
Please, if anyone can help the cause chime in with what you know.

edit: I see Hondo dropped in while I was writing my reply. Thanks for the information.

Last edited by JH1951; 10-20-2020 at 01:25 AM. Reason: revisited my trigger measurement
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 10-20-2020, 12:32 AM
fzandome fzandome is offline
Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 25
Likes: 8
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Hondo44. I meant a smooth front sight with a fine serrated trigger. Corrected my initial post. Sorry for the confusion
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 10-20-2020, 02:10 AM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 16,415
Likes: 8,081
Liked 15,805 Times in 6,619 Posts
Default

fzandome,

I have revised my post #5 to reflect your edits in your original post.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #9  
Old 10-20-2020, 07:41 AM
steelslaver's Avatar
steelslaver steelslaver is offline
US Veteran
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central Montana
Posts: 8,105
Likes: 4,574
Liked 19,324 Times in 5,469 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fzandome View Post
the more you know about these old guns, the less you know... Starting to love them
Boy, Howdy and not just those. Alll of them. The more I learn the more I find out how much I don't.
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 10-20-2020, 09:51 AM
two-bit cowboy's Avatar
two-bit cowboy two-bit cowboy is offline
US Veteran
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: the hills of ol' Wyo
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 9,778
Liked 9,925 Times in 2,906 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fzandome View Post
I read both the standard catalog (3rd) and Jinks book and they don't go into the weeds that much. 3rd addition indicates that initially they were serrated then change to a "smooth combat trigger"?? Seems at some point they went back to serrated. I have seen a "smooth combat trigger" at serial 10x.
The smooth trigger on John's 101 is not a "smooth combat trigger."

That terminology didn't appear till around 1984 (maybe a wee bit earlier). So the SCSW 3rd Ed., didn't reflect those early Chiefs with smooth triggers.

John's 101 and my 99 and 72 have the same trigger (see photo).

I wish I could add a great deal more to Jim and John's info and details, but there simply haven't been enough of the really early Chiefs surface to make an educated guess about when the change from smooth to serrated triggers happened.

Two others on my database have smooth triggers: 765 and 1221, but I must add that I didn't start tracking which had smooth or serrated triggers until early 2019 so many in my database don't reflect which trigger they have because I didn't know to look.

According to Jim (Hondo44) my 2928 has the earliest smooth ramp front sight. It has a serrated trigger. The SCSW 4th Ed., listed 2945 as the lowest serial number with a smooth ramp front sight, but I picked up 2928 after it was published. Publishing books is akin to electronic technology: by the time you publish something and get it on the street, it's out of date.

I hope this adds something to the conversation.
Attached Thumbnails
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby-dsc_0057-2-jpg  
__________________
Keeper of homeless Chiefs
Bob
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #11  
Old 10-20-2020, 11:52 AM
fzandome fzandome is offline
Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 25
Likes: 8
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Is it possible to place a different "era" trigger into these early frames? or does the design of the gun prevent that on triggers that were larger the .240? Any documented examples of trigger change outs or has anybody seen any?

Last edited by fzandome; 10-20-2020 at 01:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #12  
Old 10-20-2020, 12:24 PM
JH1951's Avatar
JH1951 JH1951 is online now
US Veteran
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: South-Central PA
Posts: 2,790
Likes: 12,732
Liked 3,803 Times in 1,346 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fzandome View Post
Is it possible to place a different "era" trigger into these early frames? or does the design of the gun prevent that on triggers that were larger the .240? Any documents examples of trigger change outs. or has anybody seen any?
Good question, and another that I cannot answer.

In hope of lending some definition or clarification, here are a few pictures. First is a picture of #101's smooth trigger which I now garner was the earliest Baby Chiefs trigger, prior to the serrated versions. (Am I correct?)


Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby-dscf5373-jpg

And here is a picture of what I am assuming is the 'smooth combat' version from my '70's version Mod. 649 (in my pocket every day) - note the extended width.


Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby-dscf3778a-jpg

I'm open to learn more - this is interesting.
This exercise has shown me how few good pictures of triggers I have. Very few out of thousands.

Last edited by JH1951; 10-20-2020 at 12:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #13  
Old 10-20-2020, 01:46 PM
delcrossv's Avatar
delcrossv delcrossv is offline
SWCA Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 3,071
Likes: 5,202
Liked 7,373 Times in 1,970 Posts
Default

See correction below
__________________
SWCA #3356, SWHF#611

Last edited by delcrossv; 10-21-2020 at 10:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 10-20-2020, 02:07 PM
fzandome fzandome is offline
Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 25
Likes: 8
Liked 16 Times in 9 Posts
Default

This is the serrated trigger on my #12743

Using a loop, I counted 10 fine plunge cut lands on this trigger.

The gun in the image in a smooth ramp front sight version for those who document such things.

Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby-img_6562-jpg
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby-img_6563-jpg
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Like Post:
  #15  
Old 10-20-2020, 05:44 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 16,415
Likes: 8,081
Liked 15,805 Times in 6,619 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fzandome View Post
Is it possible to place a different "era" trigger into these early frames? or does the design of the gun prevent that on triggers that were larger the .240? Any documented examples of trigger change outs or has anybody seen any?
The short answer is YES! Late pre war triggers of the right type even swap with post war triggers. All post war triggers are swap-able. With the usual cautions of worn triggers or mating with the hammer notch, etc.

Although I haven't done one, reportedly even MIM triggers post ~1996 are swap-able with forged pre-MIM triggers, some say.

All triggers no matter how wide have the proper top width for the frame: .240" on I and J frames, and .265" on K, L, and N frames.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Last edited by Hondo44; 10-20-2020 at 07:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #16  
Old 10-20-2020, 07:20 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 16,415
Likes: 8,081
Liked 15,805 Times in 6,619 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
My two early baby chiefs (6xx, 12xx) both have serrated triggers.
Thanks, we're pretty much narrowing it down right here in this one thread.
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 10-20-2020, 07:23 PM
Hondo44 Hondo44 is offline
SWCA Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 16,415
Likes: 8,081
Liked 15,805 Times in 6,619 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fzandome View Post
This is the serrated trigger on my #12743

Using a loop, I counted 10 fine plunge cut lands on this trigger.

The gun in the image in a smooth ramp front sight version for those who document such things.

Attachment 476697
Attachment 476698
That's still the highest documented smooth ramp sight in my database!
__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #18  
Old 10-20-2020, 07:52 PM
JH1951's Avatar
JH1951 JH1951 is online now
US Veteran
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: South-Central PA
Posts: 2,790
Likes: 12,732
Liked 3,803 Times in 1,346 Posts
Default

Here are two Baby Chiefs serrated triggers -
The first one is from a non-serrated front sight SN 635X:
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby-img_3542-jpg

The second is from a serrated front sight SN 3886X
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby-img_3686a-jpg
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #19  
Old 10-21-2020, 07:27 AM
two-bit cowboy's Avatar
two-bit cowboy two-bit cowboy is offline
US Veteran
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: the hills of ol' Wyo
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 9,778
Liked 9,925 Times in 2,906 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
That's still the highest documented smooth ramp sight in my database!
Mine, too.

I didn't know who owned it -- nice to add that tidbit, too.
__________________
Keeper of homeless Chiefs
Bob
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-21-2020, 10:51 AM
delcrossv's Avatar
delcrossv delcrossv is offline
SWCA Member
Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby Type triggers on Chiefs Special Baby  
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 3,071
Likes: 5,202
Liked 7,373 Times in 1,970 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
Thanks, we're pretty much narrowing it down right here in this one thread.
My bad (note to self, do Not trust one's memory).

#67X has a smooth trigger, #159X is serrated.

__________________
SWCA #3356, SWHF#611
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB: S&W Baby Chiefs Special (S/N 16) JH1951 WANTED to Buy 9 11-26-2020 07:58 AM
My First Baby - Chiefs Special That Is..! RoyS S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 23 05-29-2020 07:31 PM
'52 Baby Chiefs Special two-bit cowboy S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 13 12-23-2016 10:26 PM
Before and After - Baby Chiefs Special Malysh S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 12 05-14-2014 09:23 PM
WTB: **FOUND** Early type hammer for Baby Chiefs Special Malysh WANTED to Buy 2 03-22-2014 09:07 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:28 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.42 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)