I am looking at a possible purchase of a 2" Victory, in a town a few hundred miles away from me. Of course, I am leary of this being a cut down model. Here is what I know from info gathered over the phone. It does have the right color and there is a short lug under the barrel to hold the front of the ejector rod. Serial number on the butt matches the cylinder. The flat on the bottom of the barrel where there is usually a serial has no markings at all. The part of the upper frame does not look as if there is a "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" mark, just some faint scratches. There is a flaming bomb stamp on the butt next to a lanyard loop. Here is the kicker (I hope): the serial number is V5104XX. I understand that the 2 inchers only came within a certain serial number range, and I don't know if this falls within. Oh, the barrel is stamped with "38 S&W Spc Ctg". Any help from the experts would be greatly appreciated.

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John
SWCA #3401 SWHF #737

Of course pictures would help but just know that if it looks like a true 2" Victory in every way but the barrel flat has no serial number then most likely the 2" barrel was added later.

HTH,
Dale

P.S. I'd love to add an original factory 2" Victory to my accumulation. IIRC there were some examples originally assembled as 4" revolvers only to be later converted to 2" examples (with matching s/n barrels) and may factory letter/historical letter as such due to the factory "rework" performed.

I could be wrong but I seem to remember just such an example somewhat recently.

Either way I feel if it was a factory installed barrel it would have the matching serial number.

I'm with tenntex. The absence of a serial no. on the barrel flat undermines my confidence.
Sounds like a barrel swap. If the revolver is priced as an original 2" Victory (???) ,there is no room for doubt.

See if you can obtain detailed photos.

I believe that most of the Victory snubbies had SNs somewhat below V200000, at least those on my list do. That, along with the absence of a SN stamped on the barrel flat indicates that you should use extreme caution. You might want to condition the sale on the seller getting a historical letter. Of course if he only wants a few hundred for it, buy it.

All my original factory lettered 2 in Victory Models are below V200000 serial # and have the # stamped on the barrel flat. That does not mean that a genuine 2 in Victory with a higher # does not exist, but I would not accept one as genuine if the barrel is unnumbered. Ed

There were some genuine 2“ Victorys that shipped late in the war to police departments on DSC orders, so the absence of a topstrap marking would fit with that.

But of course there were also new 2” non-serialed replacement barrels available. As others have already said, the absence of a matching serial on the barrel flat would kill this for me.

On a completely irrelevant sidenote: that gun is within a few hundred of V 510210, the converted BSR used by L.H. Oswald

IIRC these may be some of the examples originally built as 4" DSC revolvers that were converted to 2" (barrels serial numbered matching) at the factory, prior to shipping them. There were internal S&W/customer related documents stating such assuming I am not too far off track here.

At least that seems somewhat familiar to me.

I would never even consider buying a rare and collectible S&W unless the seller had the letter confirming ID and configuration.

Unless it was priced as a shooter, of course.

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No life story has happy end.

Are the last two digits 73?

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

As an SWCA member, Roy Jinks may be helpful here with a ship date request. Look for the words "neat gun".

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Hello Vettepartz:

I assume that the 2 inch Victory revolver you are asking about is serialed V510473. If so, then it should look just like the 2 incher below. In fact, it happens to be an image taken of V510473 years ago. At that time the revolver was located in New Mexico.



The gun is not USGI as its serial is far outside of the USGI 2 inch serial number range and lacks the definitive left top strap markings for a USGI 2 incher. Instead, V510473 is a gun shipped under DSC authorization. As revealed by the factory letter shown below it shipped as a 2 incher to the J.A. Jones Construction Company in 1944. Jones Construction was a huge outfit. In 1944 it was building Liberty ships at its shipyard in Brunswick, GA.



This information is from the Victory Model Database. I regret to say that I don't have a pic of the left side or one of the bore, but this should give you a head start.

I hope this has been helpful to you. Good luck.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

For comparison purposes:

A DSC Snubnose Victory -- UPDATED WITH NEW SWHF INFO

If the revolver you are looking at is indeed the one for which Charlie produced the letter, then it might be worth your while to check with the S&W Historical Association to see if there is any correspondence about the circumstances under which it was ordered and delivered.

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David Wilson

Charlie:

I know stuff happened, and there are things we’ll never explain definitely. So would you consider this gun‘s 2” barrel without a serial number on the flat to be just a fluke, an oversight? Or do you have records of that happening with other 2“ original barrels? Or a possible correct replacement for a damaged barrel?

I"d like to hear Charlie's thoughts on that too, but while we're waiting for him to reply I will say that I think the absent serial number would in this case be a fluke. If there is correspondence in the SWHA files, it might address this very question, as it did in the case of the revolver in the thread for which I posted a link just above. I would also like to know if the gun in question has any service or repair department stamps. We don't always get all the evidence from a specimen that we would like to have, but often we have enough to draw some reasonable conclusions.

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David Wilson

See DCWilson's post #43 in the link. These were the S&W 4" to 2" (DSC) conversion documents I was referring to. That being said with the conversion being performed by/at S&W I would not have thought the 2" replacement barrel would have ever left the factory unserialized. (Rush order?)

If that turns out to be the case then it is just yet one more reason why I try to "never say never" with regards to S&W.

So it appears that we have a legitimate - but not quite original - 2" Victory.

That leads me to wonder ... 2" Victory revolvers being fairly rare , and this one being very distinctive given the apparent factory conversion from 4" to 2" , with a non-serialized barrel ...
Would this specimen be of a higher value than a "standard" 2" Victory?
Lower value?

I'm asking because I sure don't know.

I guess the real question is how do we know that a factory serialized 2" barrel wasn't later replaced with an unserialized 2" barrel for whatever reason? (The 2" unserialized replacement Victory barrels were/are out there.)

Obviously if more factory lettered 2" DSC Victory examples turn up with unserialized barrels then we can most likely categorize it as less than a fluke........and most likely an expedient measure to get them out the door faster for a rush order. (But let's think about this rationally for just a moment......S&W manufactured wartime revolvers during WWI and WWII and still found a way to serialize the barrels on those examples needed for both war efforts.)

I've become somewhat spoiled on the numerous factory serialized parts older S&W revolver examples. It's a big reason as to why I collect them as by simply looking for the matching serial numbers and assembly numbers you can feel more confident in an all-original item. (You just have to do your homework with relation to their fonts, placement, locations, etc...)

As to value............while with a factory letter possibly supporting a 2" unserialized barrel I feel it would be desirable, but if I had to pick I personally would prefer a serialized 2" barrel example that factory letters as such.

Obviously it is still a desirable 2" configuration, and especially from the standpoint that we wouldn't expect such an item to have left the factory without the barrel being serialized...........but with a factory letter possibly supporting it may very well have happened then it is definitely a conversation piece too. (I would attempt to verify that other factory lettered 2" DSC examples with unserialized barrels are also out there before I would pay a high premium for it though.)

Is it worth as much or more than a serialized barrel version? While maybe not to me at this very point in my Victory "accumulation", it doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't want to add just such an item when all else has been acquired already.

In fact I seem to be talking myself into it the more I talk about it.

There has been a lot of response to the OP's inquiry.

Mr Vettepartz , what are your thoughts? Is the revolver reasonably priced? Are you gonna go for it, all things considered? If you were to share a general reference to the asking price I am sure there would be opinions offered on that too.

First off, let me say thank you to all that have contributed their thoughts and information to this thread. I appreciate those who have taken the time to make comments here.

The seller had not set a price as he was unsure of the validity of this being an actual 2" model. I have been trying to contact him by phone, but only have been able to leave messages on his answering machine. I would like very much to buy this gun if his price is reasonable based on the condition of his gun. Obviously not the full value of completely original gun with no flaws.

I will keep this thread going as soon as I can reach the seller.


EDIT: I have just talked with the seller and agreed to purchase the gun for a little more than I was hoping. We are to meet early next week for the exchange. When I have it safely in my hands, I will take detailed pictures and post them here.

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John
SWCA #3401 SWHF #737

I picked up the Victory this morning, and as promised, here are some pictures. I know I am not the best photographer and if there are any other details you would like to see, please let me know.

This is nowhere near an original collectible, but it does have the factory letter saying it was shipped with the 2" barrel. The barrel and the stocks have no markings on them, and it appears to have been re-parkerized at some point. However, the serials match on the frame butt, cylinder, yoke, and underside of the ejector star.

Thanks to Kevin Williams and Charlie Flick for providing information and pics of docs. I contacted the Historical Foundation people and they say there are NO documents. The picture of the factory letter says it was shipped Feb 1, 1944 but when I asked for a shipping date on this forum, Dr. Jinks said it was shipped Dec 1, 1944. Since 1944 is my birth year and the month falls between these dates, I will request another letter, even though there are no documents.

Price was more than I wanted to pay, but was still under 1K. It is worth it to me, although others may not agree. Comments welcome.

Attached Images

	Victory A.jpg (73.7 KB, 33 views)
	Victory B.jpg (69.9 KB, 33 views)
	Victory C.jpg (112.3 KB, 35 views)
	Victory D.jpg (90.1 KB, 25 views)

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John
SWCA #3401 SWHF #737

Here are some more pictures

Attached Images

	Victory E.jpg (72.0 KB, 29 views)
	Victory F.jpg (36.2 KB, 27 views)
	Victory G.jpg (92.4 KB, 35 views)
	Victory H.jpg (50.3 KB, 32 views)

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John
SWCA #3401 SWHF #737

Thanks for posting these, John. It will be fascinating to see what a new letter reveals.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Hello John:

Thanks for the additional pics. They certainly provide us with a much better view of the revolver than the crummy image I had stored in my archives from years ago.

Here is another issue that the new pics reveal. The ejector rod should have a knurled end on it. See the image below of my USGI 2 incher and compare the end of the rod there to the one in your image.



You paid a small fraction of the price that a high condition, all original 2 incher would ordinarily bring. You went into the deal with your eyes open and came away with a lettered 2 inch Victory with some issues. At that price level I would say that you did just fine.

You have come upon a rare bird. Enjoy it.

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Charlie Flick
SWCA 729 HF 215

I was going to say the same thing with regards to the lack of knurling on the extractor rod end.

An oddity for sure but with a factory letter supporting it as a 2".

If I had seen this example in the wild, without a factory letter, with an unserialized barrel, and no knurling on the extractor rod I most certainly would have made the (incorrect) argument against it not being an original 2" Victory.

So with the extractor star having a matching s/n do we really think S&W cut down the original longer extractor rod....thus no knurling or is it a heavy handed refinish that may have removed the knurling? (Or possibly even a cut-down post factory replacement rod?)

With the "30" stamped on the side plate it may support at least 29 other somewhat similar examples floating around out there.

Now I would have to ask myself with the amount of wear requiring a refinish, new unnumbered stocks, and possible replacement cut-down extractor rod..............could the (unserialized) barrel also be a possible replacement installed during an overhaul?

Thanks for posting the additional pics and congrats on acquiring it.

Not being a collector or an expert all I see is a really cool M&P snub with a factory lanyard ring. Very cool in my book. Makes want to put a 2" barrel on a klunker VM. Maybe turn it into a pinto, too.

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No life story has happy end.

You had me all the way until you said pinto.

John and I have discussed this so I'm not raining on his parade but I'm not sure a new letter will show that it shipped with a 2" barrel. Cutting the ejector rod when the 2" barrel was installed might explain why it has no knurling. Given the discrepancy in the ship dates, both of which were provided by Roy, means the first letter may be a mistake and that it originally shipped with a 4" barrel. That would be consistent with the serial number range.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Awwwwwwwwwwwww shucks. Oh well, it has been a great discussion.

Here's pics of my "faux 2" Victory" parkerized post-war M&P. (No lanyard loop and no PINTO!!!!)

Attached Images

	S&W post WWII M&P snubbie sn S913297 (2).jpg (77.5 KB, 18 views)
	S&W post WWII M&P snubbie sn S913297 (1).jpg (64.6 KB, 20 views)
	S&W post WWII M&P snubbie sn S913297 (5).jpg (68.0 KB, 17 views)
	Post WWII M&P snubbie in modified 1953 military shoulder holster.jpg (94.1 KB, 17 views)