So there's this revolver advertised for sale that proports to be a World War II Model 10. Clearly that's wrong for the obvious reason. Plus the serial number begins with a V then 588749; it's got smooth grips, and a pre-War hammer.

Now that that's out of the way, here's my question:

On the right side of the barrel (poor photos to boot) it says, in three lines:

(What looks like an R but could be a P) "Rossing" a space and then what looks like "ifng _ _ _ " and then on the next line the letters "Spez" and then on the third line in regular looking S&W lettering "38 S&W Cartridge."

The usual S&W stamping is also seems to be on the right side of the frame in the usual place, but again the photos are so bad it's hard to tell.

Can't read anything on the left side of the gun, photos are too poor.

I'm assuming it's a 38/200 made for the Brits. But what the heck is SPEZ? That doesn't look original to the gun, looks to be an after stamp.

Anyone got any ideas?

Here's a pic.

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Based on your description and the poor photo, I’d say it’s a genuine S&W British Service Revolver that was converted to .38 Special.

It was a common practice after the war when many of these were sold commercially. British law required that the guns be proof tested and so marked before they could be sold, but those markings are not English proofs.

No idea where the conversion was done, but I’d steer clear of it. The .38 S&W cartridge is fatter and shorter than a .38 Special and most of the conversion consisted of simply reaming the chambers, which typically results in bulged brass.

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"I also cook."

Yes, what S&WChad said.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Looks like it may have been proofed by the Germans????
JIM.......................

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SWCA # L-1911

My suspicion would go this way too. Not proofed, but converted.

This looks unofficial, but the z instead of c (German “spezial”) is a strong clue. I haven’t had my coffee yet, but unless I’m missing something obvious, the words above make no sense to me and might be a name?

PS: The second word may be a town in Germany, Lenggries.

PPS: So I read what has to be the converter‘s name as “Rossing”. No gunsmiths by that or a similar name to be found around Lenggries, but this looks like a quite old stamping, so likely long passed, without leaving a web footprint.

I agree with Chad and Snake. Was converted to .38 Spez. and proofed in Germany or Austria. After WWII, many BSR's were given to local police and that is likely where this gun went before it was imported here.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Another addendum:

Lenggries is in Bavaria, and Bavarian police did get several thousand BSR’s in 1946. They were sold off in the early 1950s.

You say the photos are bad. Can you tell whether there is any writing on the left frame?

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There is a Rossing in Austria and Lenggries is about 130 miles away in Germany. Perhaps there is a connection between the two. There was a German military facility in Lenggries during WW2 taken over by the US at the end of the war.

Perhaps the gun saw service in one local and then the other???

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James Redfield
LM #497

Blown up, I see:


ROSSING


Then, I see: I? - E or F? - N - G - G - R - I? - E or F? - S

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

A possibility. Neither Bavarian nor Austrian police converted any of theirs, but both stamped all of theirs, Bavaria as shown above and Austria with the circular “Östereich Polizei“ stamp, so if the OP gets better photos, they might provide more clues.

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I stumbled upon this thread because I am the one who just won the auction on the Victory in question. I googled the markings on the barrel and this thread popped up. It should be here in a few days then I will have more info on the markings. Wish I would have seen this thread first though. With the rechambering in Germany, am I taking a big risk if I try to fire it with light 38 special loads? I ended up getting it for $350 so even if it isn't a shooter, it would still be a cool piece of history to have around for the price.

No risk; the gun‘s basic design was meant for .38 Special pressures and the cylinder and barrel were just bored slightly differently for the British model. Depending how tight the conversion was done, you may have more or less bulged brass, as the .38 S&W had a slightly larger circumference, but not a safety concern. Some bubba jobs done in the US can lead to split cases, but I would not expect a German conversion to be that sloppy. With standard target loads you can probably shoot the gun happily for the rest of your life

Do check the gun for all the possible markings we discussed and please post some good photos.

I think that you did well on your auction purchase. It looks to be a post war police gun as stated. I agree with Absalom that German work on the gun is most always of a very high standard. I was stationed near Widen, Bavaria from 1982-1988 and at that time there were a lot of guns on the market. Police turnins were selling for $99 at the PX rod & gun club. I added a number of guns to my collection and had a lot of custom work on my German hunting rifles. Gunsmithing on my rifles was beyond outstanding!

Well you can certainly shoot the gun. Given the difference in bullet diameter between what it was made for and what you're going to be shooting in it, I don't know how happily you'll be shooting it. The next thing I don't know is the actual effect of that difference when it comes to where the bullet hits vs. where you wanted it to hit. It ain't like the bullets are going to rattle down the barrel, but they for sure won't fit like they're supposed to.

Ralph Tremaine

Thank you for the info. I am glad to hear that shooting it should not be an issue. I will give a full report once it gets here.

I have had two that had the conversions done. They both were plenty accurate enough to keep all shots on a paper plate at 25 yards, no they weren't tack drivers, but not terrible either. The cases did bulge. But no splits I even reloaded some for it only resizing the mouth they did just a little better accuracy wise not sure why though since I was still using .357 dia bullets...

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Randy

Alright it finally arrived and I’m more confused than ever. I’m guessing this was a lend lease that went to the Germans post war and then back to Britain before hitting the US again. There are no import markings that I am aware of. Barrel is marked smith and Wesson on one side with the bnp British proof and .38 .767 3 1/2 tons next to it (I believe this is a British rechambering to 38 s&w, post war?) . Then the frame on the left side has multiple proof marks. Bnp, checkered shield, “73” and one other that I can’t make out. It is also marked “hege.” Top of frame is marked US property chd. Right side has normal s&w logo on frame and made in USA. Right barrel is marked 38 s&w ctg and then spez. With Rossing and lenggries. So my main question is what is this actually chambered in? 38 special or 38 s&w? And then did it end its service in Germany or Britain ?

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I think I found the case for this gun:



Seriously though, hope you can suss out its history. Looks pretty unique!

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Psalm 27:2

Easiest way to check out the chambering is to try placing a 38 special cartridge in the cylinder. If it fits, then it's been bored through to accept the longer cartridge. If it sticks out the rear of the cylinder, then its still 38 S&W.

Mike Priwer

38 special fit great so that’s good news. I didn’t want to try and track down 38 s&w right now.

Open the cyl, and show a pic of the chambers from the rear and we can probably tell you, assuming they are reasonably clean.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Since 38 Special fully inserts into the chambers oh, it's been reamed to accept that cartridge. The original caliber for the gun was 38 S&W. 38 Special has a smaller diameter than 38 S&W and the casings may swell and crack when fired. If you don't reload that's probably not an issue for you. But if you do, you may not have good brass after resizing.

Guy

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Thank you for all the help. I’ve included a picture of the chambers. The serial number is v588xxx. Anyone know what year this would have been produced?

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It was made around mid-1944.

So based on the British commercial proofs, and the fact that it was proofed in Munich in 1973 for sale in Germany, probably after the conversion, I think it served in neither the German nor Austrian police.

It was simply a surplus BSR that made its way to Germany after being retired in Britain, was bought/sold there by Hege (the Hebsacker company, a well-known surplus dealer), and at some point converted by the gunsmith in Lenggries. Whether Hege or Lenggries came first is impossible to tell.

PS: To sort out the individual markings for you:

The eagle + letter on the barrel and the frame and the two shields, the checkered and the 73, are German (Munich proofhouse 1973).

The whole set on the barrel (.38 for cal, .767 for proof load case length, 3.5 tons per sq. inch pressure, and crown/BNP for Birmingham Nitro Proof, also on frame) are post-war British commercial after being surplused.

Hege is simply a trade marking like the Rossing/Lenggries marks, and the spez.

All others are standard factory/Lend-Lease Victory markings.

It was originally chambered in .38 S&W, but due to the conversion should now be able to chamber and shoot BOTH .38 S&W and .38 Special. Both are safe to use.

Thanks for the great info Absalom! That makes sense. It was great to get some answers on this odd ball. I am assuming since is was a lend lease and then surplused and rechambered, it probably doesn’t have much collector value, but hopefully ends up to be a decent shooter.

Europeans love to stamp markings on guns.

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No life story has happy end.

If you are a reloader I would mark my brass, deprime with a universal deprime die and size the top 1/3 only with a 38 special die.

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Front sight and squeeze

The 38 S&W is both wider in the case diameter, but shorter in length. The original chambering was for 38 S&W, hence the 38 Special would not insert all the way. The only conversion that was done was to relieve the chamber ends to where the 38 Special would go all the way. In other words a 38 S&W cartridge should be just fine for shooting. It is not like you were foreclosed on shooting 38 S&W after they did the reaming. Some have touched on the same issue, but I am set to reload 38 S&W, and I finally figured out that I could pick up a decent Smith even though altered to 38 Special for shooting. Took a spell with me for the light bulb to go on.

It may be that some one has swapped out the cylinder as it dose have a little more gloss to the bluing than the frame. JMO.

The serial # on the cylinder will match the # on the but of the gun if it is original to the gun. If it has been replaced with a .38 special cylinder you it will be better off as a shooter. I am not positive hat the British service revolver and the American .38 special barrel are bored differently. Either way it should shoot adequately for most purposes.
OZ

I've had 3 of these that were converted never had a split case or trouble hitting targets no you won't get target accuracy, but depending on how much you shoot you may not even notice a difference. Also if you are a reloader just size the case enough to hold your bullet then crimp. You will of course have to dedicate these rounds to this gun. I have often wondered about reaming the cylinders on these on out the length of a 38 special case to the 38 S&W case diameter. Then fire forming some 38 special cases. Loading with a proper .361 diameter bullet. I would think this would help with accuracy. A sort of stretched 38 S&W probably not worth the effort though...

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Randy

I agree with this. The ejector rod is not correct either. Are there BNP proofs stamped on the outside of the chambers just behind each cylinder flute? The SN should be on the rear face of the cylinder and on the rear face of the yoke, viewed through one of the chambers. If there are no BNP proofs on the cylinder I strongly suspect that the cylinder was changed to make the conversion. Try chambering some .38 S&W.