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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 11-16-2020, 09:15 PM
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Default Pre 19 - A lesson when buying a gun

I get a call from one of my sources. He says, I have a beautiful pre 19 combat magnum 98/99%. We talk numbers and I say it is mine. I get to the gun shop - it is a complete state of panic with crazy buying. It has been this way for over 8 months with the hypocrite anti-gunners buying like crazy here in sunny Southern Cal. Now they understand why!! Unbelievable! Don't have my glasses, in a bit of a rush, quick look, gun is not perfect but looks great and original finish - plus I have the work of seller who I completely trust. CR I take the gun. Get home look at gun under light with focus - definitely refinished. Got some advice from my SW experts. Thank you!! Diamonds are in the right places barrel/under ejector/frame with factory date 4/64. I talk with seller and of course he is feeling bad. I don't blame him; it is a factory job and would fool anyone who wasn't taking a deep look no forgetting he has been in a madhouse since the covid deal started. Actually happier about the gun since it is now a refinished shooter!! The seller is a trusted mentor, we will work out the difference one way or the other. Point? Unless you are a deeply trained expert, buy from reputable professionals who will always do the right thing.

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Old 11-16-2020, 09:30 PM
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That is a good looking gun, with recessed cylinder...Do the grips match from side to side, or was it the lighting?...I bought a 19-4 yesterday discounted some because it doesn't have a rear sight blade or front insert, but super clean otherwise...Should be an easy fix...

Yes it does pay to buy from trusted sellers......Ben
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Old 11-16-2020, 10:05 PM
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Thanks for the reminder OP, many of my LGS are also busy with some counters 2-3 customers deep at times. My lessons learned come from 1 cracked J frame airweight because I was not privy, 1 ringed barrel on a model 17 no dash due to excessive fouling covering it up, and a wrong serial box. Do any of these once and you learn to take your time while doing the final inspection before transfer.

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Old 11-16-2020, 10:31 PM
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I bought a m-28 with 6 inch bbl at a gunshow, got it home and got around to cleaning it up about a week later. I noticed a black spot inside the barrel. It wouldn't clean up, I ran a wire down the barrel and it slipped inside the black spot. Evidently someone tried to remove a stuck bullet and drilled thru the bullet into the barrel. I ended sending it off and having it converted to .45 Colt.
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Old 11-17-2020, 12:37 AM
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One of my favorite quotes from President Reagan: "Trust, but verify!"
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Old 11-17-2020, 02:37 AM
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Well, with a trusted seller who will work it out, that's great, because that's a gorgeous shooter!
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Old 11-17-2020, 09:15 AM
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Side plate looks very tight , but the buffed out logo and slight freckling on the top strap are giveaways.

Obviously I am playing Monday Morning Quarterback here , but a total lack of turn line would have tripped my "too good to be true" alarm. I think...

It is really good that you have a solid , conscientious seller. The difference between unfired and refinished must be quite significant.
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Old 11-17-2020, 10:39 AM
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Wondering why you would think there is “anything to work out” with the dealer when you bought a used gun from him? He obviously took it on trade and you had the option to buy or not to buy...
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Old 11-17-2020, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truckman View Post
That is a good looking gun, with recessed cylinder...Do the grips match from side to side, or was it the lighting?...I bought a 19-4 yesterday discounted some because it doesn't have a rear sight blade or front insert, but super clean otherwise...Should be an easy fix...

Yes it does pay to buy from trusted sellers......Ben
GM -Grips is a good fit clean but but probably a replacement set is my guess.. Not numbered - not sure if this variation has numbered grips????
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Old 11-17-2020, 11:05 AM
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I canít do anything without my glasses. Depending on price Iím guessing I wouldíve bought it as well. My bigger regrets are saying no to guns that I shouldíve bought but didnít.
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Old 11-17-2020, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Waveski View Post
Side plate looks very tight , but the buffed out logo and slight freckling on the top strap are giveaways.

Obviously I am playing Monday Morning Quarterback here , but a total lack of turn line would have tripped my "too good to be true" alarm. I think...

It is really good that you have a solid , conscientious seller. The difference between unfired and refinished must be quite significant.
It was obvious when I put my glasses on. Hard to explain the nature of what is happening in Cali referring to gun sales. As an example, one FFL only takes order over the phone. No new orders taking unless the firearm is in stock. Order taken paid - two week minimum for an appointment DROS (Cali -dealer record of sales). 10 day wait DOJ - appointment pick up gun. Cali based on covid limits how many people can be in closed environment - FFL cannot move fast enough to keep up. All sales people are doing is DROS and delivery. The sales guys, both staff and owners are completely overwhelmed. It has gone into crazy like it has in other states, but more so here because of the amount of people buying net new for home protection.

As mentioned, was not worried since seller is solid.I can return the gun, but I like it regardless and will us as a shooter. Difference between 98/99% and a factory refinished IMHO? Value today for this gun no box 98/99%? Best guess 2k to 2500. Refinished not in like new - this condition? Cut in half 1k to 1200 given a factory job and it is a low serial first year combat magnum.

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Old 11-17-2020, 11:20 AM
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Wondering why you would think there is ďanything to work outĒ with the dealer when you bought a used gun from him? He obviously took it on trade and you had the option to buy or not to buy...
Good question and great point. There is nothing that has to be worked out. I bought the gun, had the opportunity to inspect, but rushed out since the environment was like an ongoing black Friday sale. This is on me.
However, seller is solid - represented the gun as factory original in excellent condition. Again, he was rushed in a stressed state, did a quick look then called me. When I buy unless there is a clear misrepresentation with intent I don't backup. Nevertheless, the seller is a very good friend. He already offered a credit or return which I refused. I will haggle him on the next one.

As an augment to this post and after thinking about it realtime not just in my head, I never ruin a relationship if something goes south when a person tries to do a favor. There is the old saying when looking at the empty glass, "No good deed goes unpunished". This is true with some people but not for me. Keep relationships in good standing with those who deserve it is the priority. I hope this is a good answer to your question.. Thanks

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Old 11-17-2020, 11:22 AM
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I didnít look close enough. I didnít wear my glasses. The cylinder on one of my h&r 22ís one bore was shaving lead. The lock up groove was loose so the line up was questionable between the cylinder and barrel. I later found out thereís reports online about this seller passing not so stellar guns. I figured out which way the groove needed to close up in. I rolled the groove tighter so the bore lines up. Only one half of the groove was damaged the other half was untouched. Itís just a shooter. This seller had his flat and sold guns online he changed his name online. First buy for a 22 revolver lessons come at a price. Now Iím really fussy on what I purchase. This sale hardened me up. My glasses are game on when Iím inspecting guns closely.
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Old 11-17-2020, 11:23 AM
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I canít do anything without my glasses. Depending on price Iím guessing I wouldíve bought it as well. My bigger regrets are saying no to guns that I shouldíve bought but didnít.
Exactly - Couldn't have said it better - Thank you!!
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Old 11-17-2020, 11:31 AM
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How can you tell it’s refinished?
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Old 11-17-2020, 11:44 AM
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How can you tell itís refinished?
First visual inspection under light was a possible light SW stamp. This sent up a flag. It looked factory to me by the finish; however under bright light I could see buff markes left and right side of frame.It is important to have a bright light source when inspecting. I knew at this point the gun had been restored in some manner but I was impressed - it was a very good job. Removed grips found the S with a diamond at base of the frame (indication factory blue and factory refin). On frame again under the grip 464 indicating returned to factory for work 4th month of year 1964. Diamond next to serial on barrel and a diamond under the extractor. Very clear..
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Old 11-17-2020, 12:01 PM
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I wouldn't want to pay "original finish 98/99%" condition price but I would want the gun and suspect I would pay "more than its worth" from the perspective of many here. As a long time member here points out the same craftsmen using the same equipment and processes "refinished" the gun as originally finished it. In my book the typical factory refinish from that period doesn't take much of a value reduction. I've bought several and would love to buy more. Those "solid" sellers will always make up any error on a future deal. Here are a couple for which I may have overpaid but don't regret it even a little; 48 no dash (1969 re-finish), 3.5 inch pre-27 (1982 re-finish). Enjoy your "new" pre-19.

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Old 11-17-2020, 12:04 PM
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Yours looked so good? How much does a factory refinish hurt the value?
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Old 11-17-2020, 01:16 PM
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I am a real novice on model 19s. Had they already eliminated the "5th screw" at the top of the side plate when the Combat Magnum came out? Was this one made in the transition between no 5th screw and model marking?
Just curious;
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Old 11-17-2020, 02:28 PM
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The Combat Magnum was the first K-frame to be made using a 4-screw frame. The directive to delete the upper side plate screw and other changes on K-frame revolvers was issued on September 7, 1955. The change for N-frame revolvers was issued a year later. Stamping of the model number was implemented for most models in 1958 even though the directive to do so was issued on June 12, 1957.

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Old 11-17-2020, 02:32 PM
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Some of the early Combat Magnums had stocks that were numbered (usually to a different revolver), but most did not.

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Old 11-17-2020, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
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How can you tell itís refinished?
Zoom in and look closely at the S&W logo. Also look at the freckling on the top strap.

Then there is the cylinder. There is a certain look to a revolver that has been reblued and not shot since. I've seen it before , and the OP subject revolver has that look.

Besides glasses , a bright compact flashlight is critical to a good inspection of a high condition high value firearm. I like to carry multiple sets of readers - makes me look like a dork but the ability to see detail is excellent.
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Old 11-17-2020, 04:17 PM
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Yours looked so good? How much does a factory refinish hurt the value?
The general rule - half value t same condition original finish - more for a factory most about how bad you want it!
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Old 11-17-2020, 04:18 PM
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Some of the early Combat Magnums had stocks that were numbered (usually to a different revolver), but most did not.

Bill
Thanks Bill!!
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Old 11-17-2020, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waveski View Post
Zoom in and look closely at the S&W logo. Also look at the freckling on the top strap.

Then there is the cylinder. There is a certain look to a revolver that has been reblued and not shot since. I've seen it before , and the OP subject revolver has that look.

Besides glasses , a bright compact flashlight is critical to a good inspection of a high condition high value firearm. I like to carry multiple sets of readers - makes me look like a dork but the ability to see detail is excellent.
Good advice - I usually carry a few x10 magnifiers and a loop plus a small surefire low level light. Off to look at an pre 37 today! FY A few rounds shot on this one..
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Old 11-17-2020, 04:40 PM
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I would never know but I'm not an expert. Not a collector either so I wouldn't care much either if price right.

Only refinished gun I unknowingly bought was a 4" nickel Python. Didn't take a real careful look. Was too busy ripping my wallet from my pocked to dig out the $350 asking price.
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Old 11-17-2020, 05:19 PM
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I bought a used python. Early 4 digit serial number knowing it had been altered.....serial number placed it as having had to be a 6 inch barrel, instead it was a 4 inch barrel with altered sights. I knew that it was not original but I bought it any way for 1000 bucks. I did not take the grips off but knew the grips were aftermarket and ugly, but it was my first python.

Got It home and took the grips off and found that that the butt of the gun had been butchers to accommodate the grips.....I was bothered but I figured you win some, you lose some. It wasnít until some time later that I learned the grips were Fuzzyís and that the gun was an L.A. County Sheriffís gun that had been customized.....it has character but sure is ugly.



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Old 11-17-2020, 05:29 PM
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it doesnít pay to rush. Now we know what to look for. Do you really remove the grips in the LGS to inspect the frame?

Three revolvers I purchased from the same dealer online he admitted they had freckling he actually turned out to be dried reddish ccolored gun oil.
I was shocked to see all three clean up to 98%/99% condition. I got a cheaper price upfront, expected the worst but I did see pics.
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Old 11-17-2020, 05:42 PM
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Refinished or not, that is a beautiful revolver.
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Old 11-17-2020, 05:48 PM
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I once bought a nice early 1950's K-22 Masterpiece from a seller that I had done business with several times previously. Everything seemed good except when I glanced down the bore and through the chambers they looked dirty. No big deal I thought, a lot of people never clean .22's. I didn't bother to run a patch down the bore even though I always have cleaning gear in my gun show backpack.
After the 10 day wait I got the gun home and discovered that the bore was severely pitted as were all six chambers. How in the world that could have happened to a K-22 that was otherwise in about 98% condition I'll never know. I contacted the seller and he refunded my money no questions asked. I'm sure he didn't know about the condition issues. I often wondered where the gun finally ended up. It pays to have a good business relationship with some trusted sellers.
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Old 11-18-2020, 03:52 AM
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it doesnít pay to rush. Now we know what to look for. Do you really remove the grips in the LGS to inspect the frame?

Three revolvers I purchased from the same dealer online he admitted they had freckling he actually turned out to be dried reddish ccolored gun oil.
I was shocked to see all three clean up to 98%/99% condition. I got a cheaper price upfront, expected the worst but I did see pics.
No I didn't but picked another gun form same deal this afternoon and did remove the grips. I will explain in a new post!
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Old 11-18-2020, 11:45 AM
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And wear your glasses when you inspect a firearm ... hard to feel if a gun has been refinished isn't it !
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Old 11-19-2020, 08:11 AM
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As a recent SoCal escapee, I know how difficult it is to get stuff like that OP, not to mention the hassle if it's non C&R (or if you don't have an 03) and the miserable ten day DROS and a SECOND trip to the LGS...

I would have bought it too... disappointment in the Refi - yeah a little sure, but just shoot it and enjoy it. I personally look for stuff with slight flaws and that I am not afraid to shoot. That's a beautiful revolver!
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Old 11-19-2020, 11:03 AM
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Nice looker OP. Great to hear cases where a seller backs his integrity and will work out an honest value after the fact.
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Old 11-19-2020, 11:47 AM
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As a recent SoCal escapee, I know how difficult it is to get stuff like that OP, not to mention the hassle if it's non C&R (or if you don't have an 03) and the miserable ten day DROS and a SECOND trip to the LGS...

I would have bought it too... disappointment in the Refi - yeah a little sure, but just shoot it and enjoy it. I personally look for stuff with slight flaws and that I am not afraid to shoot. That's a beautiful revolver!
Thanks AC - There are so many thing in Cali we cannot buy new unless they are on roster. Don't running into ore 19 very often - happy to have it as a shooter. If you haven't seen my most recent post, take a look at the Pre 37!!
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Old 11-19-2020, 11:48 AM
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Nice looker OP. Great to hear cases where a seller backs his integrity and will work out an honest value after the fact.
Yes it is.. They are out there.. Take a look at my new pre 37. Same seller and sold with a credit off this pre 19!!
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Old 11-19-2020, 02:02 PM
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Thanks AC - There are so many thing in Cali we cannot buy new unless they are on roster. Don't running into ore 19 very often - happy to have it as a shooter. If you haven't seen my most recent post, take a look at the Pre 37!!
We had a brief period back in 2012-2014 with the single shot exemption, I managed to gather pretty much everything off-roster back then!

I'll check out the pre-37, thanks. BTW I am ACfixer (obviously) over at CG if you frequent there as well. Not sure if you're active on that site or not.

Lance
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Old 11-22-2020, 02:30 PM
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its a drop dead gorgeous gun
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