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11-30-2020, 10:44 AM
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A Fuzzy K38
A recent addition to my K collection. The typical cut in the butt and what I presume are Fuzzy Ferrant grips, with the prominent right side palm swell. "John" inside of both grips.
Bob
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11-30-2020, 10:55 AM
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I see that and I think LAPD from the late 60s and 70s. The grips were popular with cops and many officers in the LAPD carried target grade 6" revolvers as they were limited to 38 Specials so they wanted the best accuracy and most velocity possible from the 38. I have a 1950 Colt Officers Model with the Fuzzy cut.
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11-30-2020, 11:25 AM
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Those look more like Hurst grips to my eye. John.Hurst if I remember right.
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11-30-2020, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet
Those look more like Hurst grips to my eye. John.Hurst if I remember right.
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I think you're right.
Bob
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11-30-2020, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Doc
I see that and I think LAPD from the late 60s and 70s. The grips were popular with cops and many officers in the LAPD carried target grade 6" revolvers as they were limited to 38 Specials so they wanted the best accuracy and most velocity possible from the 38. I have a 1950 Colt Officers Model with the Fuzzy cut.
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The 6" revolver was issue on the LAPD in the 50's, 60's and into the 70's, when the 4" M15 was adopted. Cops had a choice between the Officers Model Colt and the K38. Most chose the S&W. After the M15 S&W became the issued revolver, Colts were grandfathered out.
Bob
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11-30-2020, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OIF2
The 6" revolver was issue on the LAPD in the 50's, 60's and into the 70's, when the 4" M15 was adopted. Cops had a choice between the Officers Model Colt and the K38. Most chose the S&W. After the M15 S&W became the issued revolver, Colts were grandfathered out.
Bob
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You have been watching Adam 12 reruns. Big Larry
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11-30-2020, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OIF2
The 6" revolver was issue on the LAPD in the 50's, 60's and into the 70's, when the 4" M15 was adopted. Cops had a choice between the Officers Model Colt and the K38. Most chose the S&W. After the M15 S&W became the issued revolver, Colts were grandfathered out.
Bob
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OK, ALL the cops carried 6" revolvers because SOMEBODY decided they needed max velocity.
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11-30-2020, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryofcc
You have been watching Adam 12 reruns. Big Larry
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Uh, no. I only worked there for 24 years.
Bob
Last edited by OIF2; 11-30-2020 at 09:06 PM.
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11-30-2020, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Doc
OK, ALL the cops carried 6" revolvers because SOMEBODY decided they needed max velocity.
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Max velocity had nothing to do with issuing 6" revolvers. In most Southern CA departments, 6" revolvers were common. On the LAPD, 6" revolvers with adjustable sights were issued and approved for decades (Detectives were mandated to carry their duty .38s in plainclothes). Marksmanship and qualification was (and is) important on the LAPD. Qualification is required monthly. Extra pay is given for better scores on the "bonus shoot". This has gone on since the 1930's. The firearms staff considered a 6" adjustable-sighted revolver an advantage in shooting and qualification. All the LAPD greats, like Hurst, Farrant, Hogue, Stark, Pride, Romero, etc, were academy firearms instructors and members of the LAPD pistol team. They decided what handguns the cops carried. It was all about accuracy and marksmanship.
Bob
Last edited by OIF2; 11-30-2020 at 09:08 PM.
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11-30-2020, 09:38 PM
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OK (again), I don't claim to know to anything about anything. But I do recall things I have heard and read and I know that sometime in the past I read somewhere that one of the reasons for the 6" barrel was to gain top performance from the 38 Special cartridge. Now, if that author was mistaken I had no way of knowing it.
Perhaps my comments should be prefaced with "I once read without verification..."
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11-30-2020, 09:54 PM
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Bob & Bob
Speaking of LAPD, many years ago I bought two of Chief Ed Davis's revolvers. The very early K-38 has a 6" barrel, a 'low spar' hammer (otherwise known as a target hammer), and a front-corner-cut frame. The grips, and the cut frame, were done by Walter Stark, an armorer for the LAPD and a member of their shooting team. Here are some pictures of the gun.
This last picture is of the LAPD shooting team. I've been told that Walter Stark was the creator of the frame cutting, and the grips to take advantage of it. He was also an outstanding grip maker, and he taught the skills to other LAPD officers, like Farrant, etc.
Regards, Mike Priwer
Last edited by mikepriwer; 11-30-2020 at 09:56 PM.
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12-01-2020, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Doc
OK (again), I don't claim to know to anything about anything. But I do recall things I have heard and read and I know that sometime in the past I read somewhere that one of the reasons for the 6" barrel was to gain top performance from the 38 Special cartridge. Now, if that author was mistaken I had no way of knowing it.
Perhaps my comments should be prefaced with "I once read without verification..."
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You ARE correct about the 6" and velocity...but at a later time. The 1st "new" round adopted for duty (1983) was the 125 grain +P jacketed soft point (I think it was by Federal). It was the best we could get approved through the Police Commission, which didn't like hollowpoints. At the time, the S&W M68 .38 6" was available for purchase thru the Revolver Club store. Many cops (including me) bought one. The thinking by our METRO and SWAT dudes was that the extra 2" barrel length would help expansion of the soft point due to the extra feet per second generated by the 6" barrel. There was no official testing at the Armory about this, but lots of cops carried a 6" during this time period because it "hit harder". It didn't hurt that the 68 was a superb shooter, too. Hope this helps clear things up; didn't mean to come across as a "know it all".
Bob
Last edited by OIF2; 12-01-2020 at 12:43 AM.
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12-01-2020, 02:05 AM
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What I know about vintage grips takes origin from US forums, because these beautiful grips never came overseas. To me, the round border in the left panel around the escutcheon is Hurst-style. My 2 cents
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12-01-2020, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepriwer
Bob & Bob
Speaking of LAPD, many years ago I bought two of Chief Ed Davis's revolvers. The very early K-38 has a 6" barrel, a 'low spar' hammer (otherwise known as a target hammer), and a front-corner-cut frame. The grips, and the cut frame, were done by Walter Stark, an armorer for the LAPD and a member of their shooting team. Here are some pictures of the gun.
This last picture is of the LAPD shooting team. I've been told that Walter Stark was the creator of the frame cutting, and the grips to take advantage of it. He was also an outstanding grip maker, and he taught the skills to other LAPD officers, like Farrant, etc.
Regards, Mike Priwer
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Hi Mike
I would LOVE to have that revolver. I saw literally dozens of them, just like yours, in the beginning of my career. The more savvy street cops that were gun freaks had their issue K38s set up like that. All the ones I saw had the wide target hammer and a narrow trigger. Most had the frame notched and a set of Farrant or Hurst stocks installed. The frame notching was prohibited (city property) but no one said anything about it (all the cops I knew bought their revolvers when they retired anyway). It made for a great target revolver, set up for both single action slow fire and good DA work. I tried to buy John Hurst's K38 after he retired, but he used it as a check frame to build stocks. He did give me his PPC revolver, though, with a cut frame and (of course) Hurst stocks.
Again, nice K38 revolver. It doesn't hurt that it belonged to Chief Ed Davis.
Bob
Last edited by OIF2; 12-01-2020 at 10:24 AM.
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12-01-2020, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OIF2
Uh, no. I only worked there for 24 years.
Bob
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Are you Reed, or Malloy?
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12-01-2020, 01:00 PM
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I loved watching One Adam Twelve. They did change out revolvers and holsters regularly. I still watch it from time to time on ME TV.
I wish my police career had been so cut and dried as the 1 Adam 12 episodes. I tried carrying a 6" Model 19 for a while, but it was in the way, so I reverted back to a 4" 19 and later a 4" Model 65 and a Model 58. S&W goodness allows me to type this today.
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12-01-2020, 01:06 PM
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Off on a tangent.....
Dad sent his 6" Colt New Service in .357 off to Kings for adjustable sights and a trigger job in 1939.
When they formed the Dept Pistol Team in the 50s (he was a Sargent at the time : OIC of a Patrol shift) he used his Colt as his primary duty gun(until he made Captain) and also as his centerfire target pistol with .38 wadcutters. He got a S&W Model 41in the early 60s. He shot Master.
Duty ammo was 158gr lead round nose.... until the late 60s/early 70s when they started to experiment with hot rodded +P and +P+ .38 specials
Last edited by BAM-BAM; 12-01-2020 at 01:09 PM.
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12-01-2020, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handejector
Are you Reed, or Malloy?
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Neither. I came on after those guys. I was Riggs in "Lethal Weapon".
Bob
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12-01-2020, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OIF2
Neither. I came on after those guys. I was Riggs in "Lethal Weapon".
Bob
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A Beretta and a mullet. About those cut grip frames. I wonder how many forum members have bought a S&W (or Colt) wearing target grips only to find a cut frame hiding underneath. I found some Farrant and a Paul Hurst in a gun store junk box once for three bucks each. I sold the Fuzzy’s here for $$$. The plain smooth Hursts (according to experts here) were all dinged up but had a wonderful feel to them, but I didn’t own a modified K frame square butt so bartered them off.
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12-01-2020, 08:27 PM
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OIF2
Any chance you can post some pic's of Hurst's ex PPC revolver that you have??
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12-01-2020, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 824tsv
OIF2
Any chance you can post some pic's of Hurst's ex PPC revolver that you have??
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Sure. It was built on a 10-5 long ago by Bill Davis.
Bob
Last edited by OIF2; 12-01-2020 at 09:49 PM.
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12-02-2020, 02:36 PM
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I have had several of these clipped pistols over the years. I was hired by LAPD just a little before OIF2 and John Pride was my class shooting instructor. Hurst was in charge of the "Night Combat Range" at the time and when I got hurt in training I was assigned there as a kind of gofer and watched him work, mostly checkering. The grips with the circle around the screw are most likely by Hurst. For those of you who have not shot a pistol so modified it really is, for me, a more comfortable grip. All of the modified guns I have owned were private purchase by officers who were serious about the shooting bonus offered by the department.
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12-02-2020, 02:51 PM
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Wouldn’t be an LAPD thread without one of these.
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12-02-2020, 03:30 PM
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Had two pair of Fuzzy grips that made it to Pa. .... very nice but worth too much to use.... vs my $80 Spegel grips ........ so I sold them and ordered more Spegels.
Neither were for a clipped butt..... but got to say it appears the clipped front makes for a much better grip than the "plow handle' butts on S&Ws.
Back in the 80s I modified a few sets of Targets by removing 3/8" off the bottom; or taking them all the way "up" to the frame on Round butt targets for "Boot Grips"......better for concealed carry and IMO fit the hand much better.
Last edited by BAM-BAM; 12-02-2020 at 03:32 PM.
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12-02-2020, 09:54 PM
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Great thread and photos, also nice to have the first hand on using the grips back in the day. Color me guilty of cutting a very nice K-38 Heavy and a nearly new 19-3 back in 80.
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12-03-2020, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Brown
Great thread and photos, also nice to have the first hand on using the grips back in the day. Color me guilty of cutting a very nice K-38 Heavy and a nearly new 19-3 back in 80.
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Keith - do you still have that K-38 or the 19-3? If so, I believe that some photos are in order.
This has been a Very Fun (and informative) thread. Adding to the photo part of it - here's another .38 Special that was modified in Farrant style...
The bottom photo, showes it wearing the polished and modified post-war long-action trigger and hammer that were on the gun when it came to me. The three photos above show it as it is now, with a replacement hammer that I picked up on eBay.
Funny thing with timing, just last week, I picked up a .38 Combat Masterpiece that is also frame clipped in the same manner. I'll post a few photos when I get a chance to take some.
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12-03-2020, 09:22 AM
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Count me in as a fan of Fuzzy. Here is a 27 3 1/2" wearing his smooth, double swell stocks. No frame cut required on this set.
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12-03-2020, 09:18 PM
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Here is a pair of Hurst on my Python
Farrant on my model 19
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12-03-2020, 10:02 PM
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A couple of J-frames with Hurst stocks.
Bob
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12-03-2020, 11:33 PM
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Some time ago Farrant's grandson posted that he was going to make grips, but I've not seen anything come of it.
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12-04-2020, 01:02 AM
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I was fortunate to find this at Las Vegas Antique Arms Show. A model 68 marked for L.A.P.D. with John Hurst grips.
I tried to play coy with the seller leaving the table and coming back a couple of times.
He finally said you know who made those grips and you want the gun so buy it. We haggled a bit and I bought it.
My son is a full time firearms instructor for Las Vegas Metro and I let him take the model 68 to the range.
Several of the instructors shot it and I had an heck of a time getting it back. It now wears Bill Davis rubber grips.
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12-04-2020, 03:42 AM
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A Fuzzy K38
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12-04-2020, 07:20 PM
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Grips on that Combat Masterpiece are almost certainly by Farrant.
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12-04-2020, 08:44 PM
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The reverse taper really does work even though unconventional looking. To my way of thinking they also need to be skinny so the fingers can encircle more of the grip. But regardless of my particular preference the Farrant and Hurst grips were very forward thinking, especially for the time. The dark set at the bottom of picture was my first attempt at a Farrant style grip, trying to remember but most likely 79-81. The Zebrawood set is pretty old and reworked maybe a half dozen times to get what I was happy with, smooth walnut set is the same grip but made from the start to be this style.
The second pic shows where I cut the frame on the guns mentioned above, the serial number area was then heated a bit and folded up.
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12-04-2020, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa
Here are some quick iPhone phots of my "new" 38 Combat Masterpiece (not sure who the grip maker is, any thoughts would be appreciated).
....
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Not quite the usual Farrant. The inletting might have clues. If Farrant, an early pair.
One guess is that they've been modified and refinished to the owner's preference. One point: the checkering does not quite match the finger grooves.
Another guess is following OIF2's observation that any of the LAPD grip makers could make a set in the style of the others for a customer. I've seen a couple in the Farrant style with what I see as Hurst cues and do on this one too.
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12-05-2020, 01:35 AM
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OIF2: There is a lot of discussion of Fuzzy Farrant and John Hurst grips but not much about Guy Hogue's grips. Weren't his grips as popular ?
I have a couple of sets of his work and they are fine fitting and feeling grips.
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Last edited by Toyman; 12-05-2020 at 02:44 PM.
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12-05-2020, 01:50 PM
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This is my clipped frame S&W. I bought it here on the forum several years ago. It was labeled with "Fuzzy Farrant style" grips.
This one is a little different as it is a 38/44 HD, 4" barrel with a set of Micro adjustable rear and Micro front sight. After a more research, I am leaning to believe these may be Hurst grips. The grips are super comfortable, the palm swells remind me of the modern Hogue grips.
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12-06-2020, 09:07 PM
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I think the Hogue company has been a victim of their own success and so has lost the cachet of the others. If there were ten million Farrant grips in the world, maybe nobody would care. [And if there were ...I'd want them.]
The early Hogues especially have a cult following. Linde, for one (his photo) likes them.
In the same way that there are three generational styles of Hurst grips (gen 1 and 2 pictured so far in the other posts) there are at least three of Hogue.
4 generations of Hurst if he also made the mystery Del Rey grips with the fleur-de-lis checkering.
Last edited by SG-688; 12-07-2020 at 07:52 PM.
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12-06-2020, 10:12 PM
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They feel so good on this model of police positive.
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12-06-2020, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman
OIF2: There is a lot of discussion of Fuzzy Farrant and John Hurst grips but not much about Guy Hogue's grips. Weren't his grips as popular ?
I have a couple of sets of his work and they are fine fitting and feeling grips.
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I have seen several very early sets of Guy Hogue's stocks. Nice work; his early grips look a lot like Farrant and Hurst. Two-piece, palm swells, nice checkering, etc. All these different grips were for sale at the LAPD Revolver Club.
Bob
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12-07-2020, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKmesa
- here's another .38 Special that was modified in Farrant style...
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I remember these grips and will jump in with an opinion.
They are in the style of known Blackford and early (1st gen) Hurst.
1. The dip in the curve at the top of the right side is a Hurst signature.
2. The inletting lacks the dolls head to match the half-circle cut-out of the frame. Many makers do that, but of the LAPD grip makers, I've seen the straight cut only by Hurst - and then only on some, of course.
Pictures: My old gen 2 Hurst with the straight cut and a borrowed picture by Larry21556 of a gen 1 Hurst that he reported he bought at the LAPD store. Cooper also has a picture of this style identified as Hurst in his 1961 book.
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12-08-2020, 03:50 PM
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Very handsome pair of stocks! I think they should pair up nicely with the J frame set you bought from me.
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The thread just gets better and better ! Does anyone know with any certainty how long Farrant and Stark were making grips and during what years. And possibly the same kind of info for Hogue maybe up to him having a full time shop with employes.
Thanks
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12-08-2020, 09:23 PM
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Richard (and Craig) et all
The grips on the Combat Masterpiece look curious to me, for a couple reasons. One is that they don't fit closely to the frame, but rather there is a gap between the two sides running down the rear grip strap. Second is that the checkering has a wave in it. At first glance it looks like a result of the checkering going over the palm swell. On closer examination, some of the checkering lines are actually bending around. I've never noticed that in any of the grips attributed to LAPD grip makers.
Regards, Mike
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12-09-2020, 02:56 AM
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Keith, et al
I have two of LAPD Chief Ed Davis's revolvers, and they help to show how long Walter Stark might have been with LAPD. The one I've posted the picture of is K80333, shipped to LAPD Jan 15, 1950. Ed Davis joined LAPD in 1948, and Walter Stark is in a LAPD luncheon in 1951. I would guess that Walter was on the force sometime before 1951.
Ed Davis retired in 1978 from the force, having served 30 years. The other revolver I have, of his, 6K53968, shipped to LAPD May 5, 1975, three years before Davis retired. It shows much less wear than the earlier one. By 1958, Sgt. Walter Stark is range master and chief pistol instructor. He made the grips for both guns, so he was still active making grips in 1975 or so.
I'll post some pictures of the second gun within the next day or so. The grips are checkered, and very different from the earlier pair. The frame is not cut, as I recall.
Regards, Mike
Last edited by mikepriwer; 12-09-2020 at 02:57 AM.
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